fannish navel-gazing

[aria]

It is thunderstorming today! Quite reasonably, my desktop weather widget had a picture of lightning. I still stared at it in puzzlement for a good ten seconds, thinking, "It's ... cloudy with a chance of Quickenings?" /o\

And then, sitting down to work on my Highlander fic, I was quietly plot-outlining in my head when I was brought up short by sudden guilt. And it wasn't obligation guilt: I know enough about my writing process that I can prioritize a due South AU and a Babylon 5 rewatch and an Avatar season and &c &c as much as I want, but if I sit down and a Doctor Who fic comes out instead, that's what I'm damn well writing. So trying to write Highlander fic wasn't making me think, "Why am I doing this when I should be doing x instead?" but rather "Why am I writing Highlander fic at all?" and this brought me up short: I was feeling self-indulgent, and that apparently made me feel guilty. Uh, what? Fic-writing is for funsies and not profit, after all; it is by definition wonderfully self-indulgent. Apparently, the problem is that it's Highlander.

And that's interesting, because -- okay, with Highlander, the premise is ridiculous, the acting is uneven, and I wouldn't bother actively recommending it to anyone because there are probably better things you can spend your time watching. But the degree I've been apologetic about liking it, even in my own head, borders on the absurd. I am not apologetic about my other 90s shows, and there is nothing inherently more ridiculous about "Four-hundred-year-old man runs around saving the day with a sword and occasionally beheading people" than there is in "Mountie goes to Chicago, befriends a cop, and has deep, meaningful discussions with his deaf half-wolf and dead father" nor indeed in "Lord of the Rings ... IN SPACE!" (Also, I am fairly sure that Adrian Paul could run acting circles around Michael O'Hare, which is a slightly alarming thought.) I mean, for god's sake, I am unapologetic about liking Seven's run on Doctor Who, Fifi and cheetah!Master and everything. I am happily shameless! So what the hell am I doing going mumblety highlander yeah whatever?

But I think I have an answer, in two parts. Part the first is about the fandom itself, and that is: I have no idea what the fandom is! I have been spoiled rotten by the due South fandom; because it is still alive and active, I know what the discourse is. It also remembers its history. I know who was running what when, I know where the fic archives are, I know what discussions we're having, and I know I like it. Babylon 5 fandom isn't quite so giving, if only because it seems to be a meta-based fandom for the most part, but there's still an active rewatch, it's very easy to track down all the old meta, and the ficcers are apparently the sort of people who happily embrace the AO3 -- so, again, I know the discourse (or at least can pick and choose it, because I'm fannishly more interested in Centauri-Narn relations than Human-Minbari ones, if you know what I mean). But with Highlander ... man, I don't even know. I've found the fic! That was easy. I've found the vids! That was surprisingly easy too. But maybe the fossilized record of the active discourse is hiding away on lists, or defunct message boards, or in the far depths of people's LJs from the early 2000s, back in the Land Of No Tags, or somewhere I cannot even imagine.

The point is that, since I can't find it, I don't know what the show is even about, in a fannish context, except those bits I can glean from fic. With due South, I know it is absurd, I am allowed to think it is absurd, I'm allowed to feel a bit squodgy about the way the show treats Francesca and the women at large, and I am allowed to love the whole thing unconditionally anyway. With Babylon 5, I am allowed to hide from the first season acting and the fifth season plot, I am allowed to roll my eyes as much as necessary at JMS' occasional complete overwroughtness, and I am allowed to fall to my knees in worship of the storytelling and sob my eyes out whenever I feel like it, although especially at the end. With Highlander, I gather that I am allowed to shake my tiny fists of rage at sixth season and ignore as many movies as I like, but ... am I supposed to like Duncan at all? Am I allowed to yell along with the theme song and roll around on the floor laughing like a hyena whenever there's a Quickening? How irreverent am I supposed to be, and is it a party faux pas to get tipsy and start rambling about how a modern AU where the Four Horsemen are the dorkiest most dysfunctional gang ever would be great?

And I ask all this not because I need a given fandom's permission to read a show a certain way, but because I like not working in a vacuum. And because I am, my brain can't decide whether it's supposed to apologize for this show or if we've got it covered, it's taken as written that it's rubbish, and we're ready to move on now and just throw a good party. So that's the first thing.

The second thing is probably related to the first, but is way less complicated. And it is: id show. Oh my god Highlander is my stupid id show. I have a crazy immortals kink about a galaxy wide, and to my surprise, the show actually considers a lot of the stuff I want considered when it's stories about crazy immortals. How does someone keep functioning when everyone around them dies? How does a person manage to change with the times when the times insist on becoming so different? What about what happens when a person reaches immortality when they're too young, and end up stuck that way? How do they keep the ordinary people around them from noticing that they never age, and what do they do if the ordinary people do notice? But of course none of this is addressed in a subtly-written, well-acted, beautifully-shot way. It's done in a way where you blink and end up missing it because of all the ridiculous pyrotechnics.

So, okay, you sexualize said pyrotechnics as much as possible, add in some accidental mind-melding, lots of dark backstory, and some nosy, snarky academics -- and, hello, you have Aria's perfect fic. I suspect the issue is in the packaging and execution; like, it is everything I have ever wanted, but it's ... not that well-done. Comes a Horseman/Revelation 6:8 comes close to my Platonic ideal of the show, and in fact comes a hell of a lot closer than most of the fic, but -- but. I can't actually tell anyone else that they should see any of it, because their kinks are not necessarily my kinks, and they could easily be watching a different story.

Obviously the solution is to just write my ridiculous Highlander id-fic, not least because enthusiastic self-indulgence usually produces the best fannish writing. But I still feel weird and apologetic about it. OWN IT, SELF, OWN IT LIKE ALL THE OTHER AWESOME RUBBISH YOU LOVE.

Comments

[yasaman]

Oh I have some of the same feelings about Highlander! I mean, yes, it's sort of terrible? But I just honestly don't really care. Highlander has ruined me for all other immortal characters, because it does at least gesture towards some of the most interesting questions immortality raises. And once you get past the cheesy effects, the terrible clothes, the hilarious flashbacks...well, there's some really fascinating stuff at the core about what it means to be immortal, how a person navigates changing times and changing morals without compromising themselves, and relationships.

I've had fun seeing how fic writers have dealt with and answered those questions, but I do feel like I missed out on the interesting conversations and debates. Like, how did fandom first react to the whole Methos is Death thing? (Besides lots of ugly misogyny when it comes to Cassandra of course. :/ ) Were there lots of arguments between the Duncan and Methos fans? Were there a lot of debates about the nature of the Game? It's like I'm 12 years too late for the fandom, which sucks because now Highlander is just this charming throwback of slash fandom while I'm like, but I want more fic and meta and to share my thoughts :( .

Anyway, in conclusion, you should totally write your Highlander id-fic, and don't feel apologetic because you will have at least one person cheering you on!

[aria]

In that case, we should talk about Highlander FOREVER. Because it sounds like you're looking for the same show I am, and that is excellent.

Re: missing out on interesting conversations and debates, I ... secretly want a resurgence that does those conversations now, because, at least where I'm standing, it looks like fandom sensibilities have changed a lot in the last decade, and I want to have the conversations that would happen now. (For instance, as you say, the ugly misogyny re: Cassandra. Her inability to heal and move on from what was done to her is a tragedy, not a character flaw or a cheap attempt to blind Duncan to how awesome Methos is now. dfl;dsfkjfd I have made good friends with the back button a few times that way.)

But yes, I just want lots of interesting exploration of how people cope or don't with Immortality, and more on Watcher-Immortal relations, and speculation on whether there is ever going to be only one or if it's just a wonderfully tidy excuse for violence and power-mongering, &c &c. There are so many interesting things to do!

[yasaman]

YYY, I want a resurgence of those conversations, because fandom has changed so much. I feel like a lot of old school HL fic seemed unable to be fair to Methos and compassionate to Cassandra at the same time. There are a couple of fics that do it, but the vast majority just turn her into this caricature of an enraged, scorned woman. And, history nerd here, I think it goes into deeper questions of how you can or can't judge the morals of times and cultures that are far removed from our own. I feel like the show too often backed away from really engaging with the question of whether Duncan had a right to judge people for past actions that may have been moral/acceptable then but not now.

And the Game! I have thoughts about the Game, mostly that it is total bullshit and that it is just an easy-to-fixate-on purpose for immortals who go a little crazy with wondering what the point of their immortality is to latch on to. Also it doesn't make sense because there's not necessarily a mechanism to stop new pre-immortals from being born.

So many interesting questions! So many interesting characters! Why is this fandom mostly dormant? ;_____;

[juniperphoenix]

Hi there! I'm a friend of were_duck's and saw this on my Network page.

Highlander fandom (at least on LJ/DW; I'm not sure about mailing lists) has been struggling for the last few years. There are still plenty of people who love the show, but the volume of fic and discussion has been really low lately. Fresh blood would be EXTREMELY welcome. :D

hl_flash is the fandom newsletter; its maintainer, unovis_lj, has been heroic in her efforts to keep the fandom going by gathering discussion, recruiting reccers, etc.

highlander_lj is the community where I've hung out the most; it accepts fic as well as general news, discussion, etc.

tes_fic has hosted several episode discussions which will give you a good feel for the overall discourse. (And, bonus, there are pretty pictures!)

hlh_shortcuts is an annual fic exchange held in December and the most reliable source of HL fic these days in terms of both quantity and quality.

I see you list SGA among your interests... in comparison, I expect you'll find HL fandom to have more of an old-school feel (whatever that means) and to be less meta-inclined (although there is some meta, and I personally would love to see more of it). The fic output these days includes a lot of crossovers, but extreme AUs are rare.

I think everybody acknowledges the fundamental sillinesses of the story. :D But we still sob over it, too.

ETA: Ha, I forgot to mention the fandom archive, HL Fiction.

[aria]

Oh, awesome, thanks for the links! I am particularly delighted with the episode discussions, because I eat meta for breakfast! (I mean, I read it with breakfast sometimes. Basically, I love meta. :D)

I think everybody acknowledges the fundamental sillinesses of the story. :D But we still sob over it, too.

Aha! I have the normal response after all! That is good to know. ;)

[sophia-sol.livejournal.com]

Dunno if this'll help at all, but I've found at least one community that does discussion as well as fic, which might allow you to feel more connected with the opinions of the fandom. You can find it here (http://community.livejournal.com/highlander_lj/). I haven't looked at much of the discussion yet, though, so I can't tell if it's what you're looking for.

(but there IS one super-cool post (http://community.livejournal.com/highlander_lj/89701.html) about trying to linguistically determine the origin of Methos' name)

Anyways, you should TOTALLY not feel apologetic for writing Highlander fic, because fandom is all about id-y goodness, and if Highlander hits that for you? Then that is a GOOD thing. And you should write Highlander fic forever.

(ps I would TOTALLY read the modern AU about the dorky dysfunctional horsemen gang)

[aria]

YAY. No, that is exactly the sort of thing I am looking for!

(Also, oh my god. You just linked the girl who wrote the naming of things to a five-page deconstruction of the etymology of Methos' name? DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE DONE?? I don't yet know what you have done, but I am now being utterly consumed by a desire for origin stories. Yoooou bastard.)

I will keep the not-feeling-guilty in mind! I mean, most of this post was to reason it out so that I wouldn't, but being reminded of that is also nice. :D

[genarti]

Unhelpfully, I vote that you should do all the self-indulgent fic and meta you feel moved to, in an effort to jump-start a resurgence! I have seen that work somewhat, at least with a small pocket of flist-fannishness, with other fandoms in the past.

Other than that, I have :-/ faces but no helpful advice. Even eight years ago when I was reading Highlander fic on website archives, I was very much on the periphery of the fandom, and it was somewhat oldschool then too. And if there were pockets of awesome meta, I missed them back then, too. (There probably were.) That said, though I don't know that many really hardcore fans, everybody I know acknowledges the silliness of it even when it's with love. I mean, come on; they store their swords in plot holes between uses, here.

[aria]

No, that is in fact probably helpful! I don't mind talking excitedly into the void, but in this particular case, knowing that it isn't into the void is a very good thing.

I mean, come on; they store their swords in plot holes between uses, here.

sfsdjksd. True! Some day I want to play a Highlander drinking game where the only rule is that you take a drink whenever someone produces a sword in a way that is utterly against the laws of physics. I predict even with only that one rule, you'd get smashed fairly quickly.

[juliekarasik]

Oh, new HL fic would be wonderful! I love the old and dusty stuff but it's... old and dusty. New and shiny is always good.

[aria]

Well, I did write one already, but it was short. The one I am trying to do now is one of those annoyingly epic ones.

[franzeska]

I caught Highlander the first time it ever aired and watched a lot of it in its original run. I read fic a long time ago now too (though probably mostly after its original run). And I still have no clue about HL fandom.

A lot of it was indeed on lists back in the day. I think a couple of them are still on yahoo groups. It also had a decent-sized (maybe even large?) zine presence at one time. I remember reading the products of, for example, that harlequin romance novel challenge thing, but I was never really hooked in with the parts of the fandom that discussed things.

If you want debates on the nature of the game though, look no further than every nerdy guy who was in his 20s in the 1980s. Just saying. (If I never hear another "philosophical" discussion about the original movie again, it will be too soon! :D)

Oh, shit, Fanlore reminds me that, of course, HL was also heavily discussed on usenet. It looks like the mailing lists I vaguely remember being told about are HLFIC-L and HIGHLA-L.

[juliekarasik]

Not to mention ROG-L. Am now having flashbacks to the Methos estrogen brigade.

And oh my *god* the pseudo-philosophical immortality discussions! I adore Queen but I can't listen to That Album too often anymore. Too many reminders of my silly silly youth :)

[aria]

And I still have no clue about HL fandom.

That is strangely comforting. I have free reign to remix it for the twenty-first century!

[rusty_halo]

What about starting a Highlander rewatch community? If promoted widely enough, I suspect a fair number of people would join. I would, although to be honest, I'd only watch along with the Methos episodes.

I am curious how fandom now would react to Highlander. At its best, the show raises some fascinating issues, especially once Methos shows up and gets his shades of grey all over everything. (I'm very fond of "Chivalry" and "The Valkyrie" in addition to the obvious CaH/R6:8.) And some of the comedy episodes are great--the actors had fantastic chemistry and seem to have gotten away with quite of a bit of improvisation.

But yeah, the show is hilariously bad a lot of the time--I've had some embarrassing experiences where I've tried to get friends into it and they've looked me like I'm crazy. There's a lot of silliness that regular viewers learn to overlook after a while, but that tend to throw newbies even in the better episodes. (Wacky premise, terrible acting, disappearing and reappearing swords, headless bodies everywhere...)

[juliekarasik]

I think the level of ass-kicking meta that could be leveled this time around would rock. (The old listservs were great, but either there wasn't much meta going on, or I have completely forgotten about it.) Hulu and netflix both have all 6 seasons up for streaming.

[franzeska]

I would totally watch the first two seasons again! I haven't seen them since they originally aired (unlike the Methos episodes). My memory is that Duncan was way less self righteous before the writers had Methos for him to play straight man to.

[aria]

I would, although to be honest, I'd only watch along with the Methos episodes.

That's the thing, though! I find myself absently watching interesting-sounding bits of earlier seasons over breakfast, but I mostly want to talk about the Methos episodes, and don't have any particularly meta urge about the other stuff.

I do sort of wish for a fandom revival with now-fandom's sensibilities, though -- as you say, there are lots of good issues. Plus I suspect that there would be a hell of a lot of people on Team Amanda. (I am definitely on Team Amanda, as well as Team Joe and Team Methos. Poor Duncan, I don't really care about his team. XD)

Check it, I even have an icon:

[skywaterblue]

I watched a lot of Highlander first run - I think it was all back on Usenet then as I was faaaar to young to participate in fandom at this point. OH BUT: you know who did and is still active? selenak!

You should ask her.

Also: I secretly consider Highlander to be one of the best shows ever, because if it did nothing else it really THOUGHT about how to gender balance a TV show so that all the audiences had something to like about it. Do you like costume drama? We got that! Character arc? We got that! Silly ridiculous sword fights and motorcycle drama? We got it! Gay subtext? Secret organizations? ... etc.

And it also thought about what it really meant to be Immortal. It's sort of the benchmark for writing an Immortal character - can you make it at least as believable as the Immortals on Highlander? If you can't, you probably shouldn't be doing it.

Re: Check it, I even have an icon:

[aria]

Man, I should probably friend selenak; I'm collecting all her 90s fandoms, apparently! XD

I secretly consider Highlander to be one of the best shows ever

And I really love that you articulated why, because now when anyone, including myself, looks askance at me and wants to know why I sort of love something so silly, I can point to this comment and say "BECAUSE OF THAT!"

[beccaelizabeth]

Highlander fandom was on mailing lists, but also usenet

The Official Hypertext Highlander FAQ File
Version: 2.57 - Last updated: 12 Sept, 1997
alt.tv.highlander

Highla-l mailing list archive, 2001-2006
http://www.highlander.org/lists/
(This was waaaaay late in the life of the list)
The bit of that page that says "Due to the high volume of mail on this list, you may want to send an email to the above email address with "SET HIGHLA-L DIGEST" so that you get 2-4 emails/day instead of 80."
... yeah, no, not this century. *sigh*

there were also yahoogroups, I was on a few Richie (or Richie/Methos) focused ones, don't know if they're even archived now because they didn't start out as yahoogroups but got bought up and passed along.
oh found
http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=highlander
lots of Highlander stuff, can be narrowed by character.

fanfic was archived on Seventh Dimension or the HLX adult archive
(mailing lists list)

most of the websites I know about were on geocities or other completely closed places. webrings were the big way of finding them.


Fandom seemed to me very split by character. Flag waving for a specific character was strongly expected.


What Highlander Is About and hence how we watch it was another split. There's fans who think it's about the sword fight and who wins. There's fans who think it's about love through the centuries. And there's fans who agree with David Abramowitz that it is Talmudic Discussion With Swords. This page has it as "A romantic Talmudic discussion with ass-kicking", which covers all the bases. "They're Talmudic questions. How long do you have to keep a promise? What is the difference between honor and vanity? Is morality and justice fixed by time, or only in time and place, or does it exist, the same morality - true morality; and true justice. Justice, does it exist in the seventeenth century and that it's the same in the twentieth century. Those kinds of questions. They were great fun to write about."

Fighting over the big ideas was where the stories lived. They made some good discussion and some good (heavily researched with footnotes sometimes) fic. Where it all is now... not so easy.


It's been ages since I rewatched Highlander. it's in my head as The Good Bits Version and I'm happy that way.

[aria]

...Oh my god, your default icon suddenly makes sense to me. Heh.

Thank you for the links! They are made of shiny, and also of cool fandom anthropology. :D

What Highlander Is About and hence how we watch it was another split.

Aha! That is good to know, and quite freeing, actually, as well as very sensemaking. I love the idea of the show as a romantic Talmudic discussion with ass-kicking, though; the balance was a bit off, with the ass-kicking mostly overshadowing the Talmudic discussion, but I like that it was there at least in intent.

[polarisnorth]

And there's fans who agree with David Abramowitz that it is Talmudic Discussion With Swords. This page has it as "A romantic Talmudic discussion with ass-kicking", which covers all the bases. "They're Talmudic questions. How long do you have to keep a promise? What is the difference between honor and vanity? Is morality and justice fixed by time, or only in time and place, or does it exist, the same morality - true morality; and true justice. Justice, does it exist in the seventeenth century and that it's the same in the twentieth century. Those kinds of questions. They were great fun to write about."

If I had discovered this last year instead of now, I would totally have lobbied my Jewish Studies advisor to let me write my thesis on Talmudic Discussion In Highlander, if only to enjoy the resultant fit of apoplexy.

[gaealynn]

Highlander was my first fandom love, which was frustrating because I really disliked (and continue to dislike) Duncan, both on the show and often in fandom. On the other hand, I loved Methos and Joe, and loved what Amanda could have been and sometimes was.

Also, I might be one of the only people in the world who got into Highlander the show because of the movies? I mean, they were painfully bad, but so hilarious.

[aria]

which was frustrating because I really disliked (and continue to dislike) Duncan

dsjklfskjfds CAN WE BOND OVER THIS? Like, I am slowly coming around to liking him a bit, by virtue of shipping Duncan/Methos quite a bit and needing some reasons for Methos to like Duncan besides "Well, it was the plot," plus I have watched enough that I'm getting that Stockholm-y fondness for everyone -- but I am with you on loving Methos and Joe and Amanda.

You are probably one of the only people in the world to get into the show through the movies, yeah. :D