aria | what the hell kind of name is benton

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what the hell kind of name is benton

Okay, BURNING QUESTION TIME, because I'm trying to write Fraser POV things and I keep tripping over and second-guessing the damn pronouns. When in doubt, consult the internet!

Poll #648

Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 20

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When reading a Fraser POV story, I like/don't mind him referring to himself as

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Fraser
11 (57.9%)

Benton
14 (73.7%)

Ben
3 (15.8%)

When reading a Fraser POV story, I will allow, under certain circumstances and depending on the skill of the writer, him referring to himself as

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Fraser
12 (63.2%)

Benton
11 (57.9%)

Ben
9 (47.4%)

When reading a Fraser POV story, I really don't like him referring to himself as

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Fraser
4 (28.6%)

Benton
2 (14.3%)

Ben
12 (85.7%)

Me personally, 'Fraser' is invisible to me when I read it but I kind of feel weird having the guy refer to himself by his last name inside his own head when I'm writing him. My default is 'Benton' because I assume that's the name he uses in his head, and at this point when I read it, it also comes up invisible. I actually hate 'Ben' except in exceptional circumstances ie when the narrative starts when he's a child, because plenty of old friends call him Ben without it making me twitch. ('Benny' is not even an option, although if you're writing Vecchio-POV I find it mad charming.) The problem is that this makes sense to me but I imagine that 'Benton' is not invisible to other people and possibly even annoying, and having some raw numbers might be nice.

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I am pretty sure I wrote one entire epic fic with him as Ben in his own head, but it was AU and that was the whole point, so... I think I agree with you? :)

Oh, dude, you're the queen of calling them things that usually annoy me and making me like it. Like there's the one where they wake up in the alley with amnesia and decide they're called Ben and Stan? I love that one, and -- and Ben and Stan, okay, basically you're ~magical~.

Oh God I think I forgot that story existed, because I meant to actually play out the whole thing and then wandered off. But yay, I'm glad the names worked! *g*

I am not directly familiar with Due South (blasphemy!), but House fanfiction gives me a similar problem as a reader. Because pretty much everyone on the show is on a last-name basis with everyone else (including people who are MARRIED, wtf), it's always kind of weird to me to read a Wilson-POV fic in which he thinks of himself as "James." But on the other hand it makes logical sense and therefore I do not hold it against the writer. :D It's more visible, but not annoying.

WHAT. I would demand how you have existed on the internet for all these years without caving and watching it, but since I only fell prey in the last six months, I can actually understand.

Fandoms where everyone is referred to by their last names: extremely confusing. (I actually still remember my Lupin-to-Remus adjustment period. Good times.) I think the issue is having to learn not to worry about visibility? It would be easier if more people in dS fandom wrote Fraser-POV fics and referred to him by his first name, because then the visibility would start to fade, but one can't have everything.

So I think when I said it took a while to get into the POV in the first few pages of that story you sent me, what I really meant was that it took a while for "Benton" to become invisible. But I understand your quandary, and, indeed, it is kind of weird for him to think of himself as Fraser. And I adjusted to Benton, where I don't think I would have adjusted to Ben.

*nodnod* I think you are going to be stuck betaing for narration with 'Benton' in, but ... I have discovered that if I try to use 'Fraser' when its his own POV, the narration starts getting even more polite and distant, and that's just ridiculous. I'm glad to hear that it is adjustable-to, though.

Context! I don't think it's weird for him at all to think of himself as Fraser while he's on duty or is retreating into that persona for whatever reason. On his own, at home, and as relaxed as he can get I think he'd think of himself by his first name. I think, if you're committed to him using one name in the whole narrative, I prefer Benton, it being both personal and a little more formal. Ben doesn't bother me, per se, but it isn't as "invisible", no. /2 cents

I don't like Ben much, either (except in the POV of people who canonically call him that). Benton and Fraser are both good, and I usually go for Fraser, because it's the one we're used to and it's invisible. IMO, when you're in third person POV, there's still a little bit of distance between the reader/writer and the POV character, and that makes it okay to me to use Fraser. If I really want to be inside his head, I use first person POV. YMMV, though, because I know people experience third and first person POV in different ways.

Besides, none of us actually refer to ourselves by name in our heads, do we? I mean, I think of myself as "I", not "Elin" (or "Luzula" for that matter, heh). Of course, if I had to do it I'd choose my first name, not my last.

I usually use "Benton" in stories set when he's young, though. One of my WIPs is about his time at Depot and just after, and I think that's where people started calling him "Fraser". I might experiment with switching to "Fraser" at some point in that story, to show how he's being socialized into the Mountie role. Not sure about that yet, though.

I think the YMMV answer on all counts is probably correct; for instance, I don't feel distanced if I read Fraser POV where it calls him 'Fraser' but when I'm writing him I tend to get wordy and evasive unless I make him 'Benton' in my head. Who knows!

At least now I know that 'Ben' is unanimously right out except in very specific circumstances. Heh.

Oh man, I queried two of my betas about this because I actually really, really love Fraser's name--"Benton". I have him call himself that, because it's what his dad calls him and therefore what I expect he grew up being called.

In my OT3 fics, Kowalski sometimes calls him Benton. I am with you in that I don't like "Ben", either someone calling him that or him calling himself that--I have no idea why, I just don't. :)

I love Benny, but I definitely think that's Vecchio's nickname for him and no one else's. AWWWW.

I say, go with Benton! :D

I kind of love the name too. XD And I do recall that one or two of Bob's diary entries about when Fraser was quite young involve calling him Ben, and any of his friends from before he joined the RCMP seem quite comfortable calling him that, but ... his father calls him Benton now, he introduces himself that way, and really I just like it.

Funnily enough I absolutely cannot stand Kowalski calling him Ben -- it's not bad enough that I hit the back button if, say, they're all established-relationship-and-in-Canada or something, but it just pings me as weird. Whereas Kowalski calling him Benton doesn't bother me at all, possibly because I just like the name better, possibly because Kowalski's said a few "Benton-buddy"s in his time and so I can actually hear him saying it. *shrug*

Benny is kind of Vecchio's property. Or, uh. You know. :D

I think Benton is to Ben what Diefenbaker is to Dief, ie, used formally for introductions or reproach, or where there's distance between the characters. I have real trouble reading "Benton POV". But I'm not particularly fond of Ben either, except where Fraser's interacting with people who know him as Ben (Smithbauer, Eric, Quinn, etc).

Which leaves me with Fraser, most of the time, and I have no problem with him thinking of himself as Fraser. It's the name (most of) his friends and colleagues call him by. It's like me thinking of myself as "China" in a fannish context, which I might well do.

But then, I was indoctrinated early on and find it hard to change my spots.

But (she asks anxiously) if someone does want to call him Benton repeatedly in narration, does it make you want to run away or is it just mildly distracting?

It kind of makes me want to run away. Unless it's kidfic or Depot fic. Sorry!

I think it's like he's taking himself too seriously?

(Man, the inability to edit comments on DW is driving me nuts... aaaaaand I've just realised it's because I don't have a paid account. :-P)

I take your point about him taking himself too seriously; it makes complete sense, although it doesn't ... strike me as a particularly inappropriate impression to make? Not that I think Fraser takes himself too seriously, per se, but just that he has a degree of ingrained formality that's become unconscious habit. I do understand that "Fraser" is basically invisible in narration because that's probably the way we all think of him, but it still just strikes me as strange if he thinks of himself that way. On the other hand, your point about context makes sense.

Mm, I do not know! I am happy to break fannish trends but I don't want people to run away.

he has a degree of ingrained formality that's become unconscious habit.

Hmm... maybe? The fact that his Canadian friends (including Victoria, who he met as an adult) call him "Ben" suggests to me that he's more formal in Chicago (because he's a guest there, representative of the Queen, etc, = China's usual theory ;-). I don't know -- when Frannie calls him "Benton", it always strikes me as a slight faux pas on her part, emphasising distance between them when she's aiming for intimacy, and when Kowalski calls him "Benton" I think he's partly teasing. :-)

(In slightly related news, I'm pondering a Huey-POV fic, and I'm not 100% sure if he's going to be Huey or Jack. I may have to give up and go with first person POV.)

I am happy to break fannish trends but I don't want people to run away.

Well, so far I'm a statistical outlier, so that's not too much of a problem. (If you wanted a wider sample, you could always link to your poll from

ds_noticeboard, btw. It might lead to some interesting discussion. :-)

Ahhh, more good points! I'm mostly dithering because in the main I sit down and the narration just comes out with "Benton" but for the fic I'm doing right now, I keep switching back and forth and confusing myself. XD

(Huey POV fic: definitely go with Jack. Enough people call him that.)

And oooh, yes, I should do. I'm running out the door right now, but I may when I come back.

Reading labellmenteuse's (how do you do usernames on DW?) comment below made me think: but unless it's pure stream-of-consciousness, the POV name isn't what we call ourselves to ourselves -- it's a story the POV character's telling about him/herself to an audience. So for me, the question is really, "What would Fraser call himself if he were telling a story about himself in the third person?" And I think he'd say "Fraser" to nearly all audiences.

I'm sure the "what is 3rd person POV, anyway?" conversation's been had a billion times before. *makes note to self to poke around metafandom later on* :-)

I am such a minority here but I HATE it when he calls himself Fraser. Maybe this is just my prejudice but people just don't do that, and I know Fraser's an alien but - argh! People do not go around thinking of themselves as their surname! No.

I actually quite like Ben but I'm comfortable with Benton. I feel that since old friends and his dad (I think?) call him Ben that's how he usually goes to his intimates and the Rays are exceptional because their primary interactions with him are all professional.

Reading your comments I know feel like I have an Unpopular Fannish Opinion. Um.

Your strong opinion makes me happy! It is kind of what I feel about it but x100 and makes me feel more valid. Go go unpopular fannish opinion! <3

My answers were very confusing, so I will clarify here:

I always find it weird when someone refers to himself as their last name. However, this is Fraser we're talking about, so I can see it happening. Mostly though, I prefer him calling himself Benton, however on rare rare occasions I find it okay to call himself Ben.

I hope that clarifies!

I'm being contrary, here. I think that when you are talking to yourself you don't call yourself by your own name. Possible exceptions, "That was stupid, mergatrude!" So, self-reproach, which is often us voicing our parental disapproval.

I mean, I will happily sit and read a fic where Fraser calls himself anything he likes, but when I sit down and try to analyse it, that's what I come up with.

I also think it might be situational. Fraser might think of himself as Ben, Benton or Fraser depending on whom he is interacting with. But if we are writing fic about him, we are writing him as WE see him. And I see him as Fraser.

On rereading this, I'm not sure at all that I've answered your question, but gone off on a tangent of my own. Sorry. /posts and is bedamned

No, that absolutely makes sense! Because it's us recording his thoughts, not really Fraser thinking about himself in the third person. And in that light it would make the most sense to call him Fraser, because I doubt very many of us think of him casually as Benton. Huh.

Yes! I think I was trying to say something like this, too.

This is weird actually, because I really don't know what I call myself in my own head. If I were writing a me-POV fic it would be I-I-I all the time and I doubt I'd ever use an actual NAME for myself, but if I were writing third person limited fic about me, the name I'd choose for myself would vary according to the circumstances. I find myself identifying with a different name in different contexts, and it's not necessarily the name that other people call me in those contexts (though it often is, because I impose it on them). I suppose my choice would vary depending on the most prominent relationship or setting of the story.

I'd imagine Fraser is the same. I think he 'plays' Fraser more than he actually IS Fraser, but Benton and Ben can both work for me and can also seem off, depending on the situation the author sets up. I can well imagine that with certain people he sees himself as Benton and others as Ben, like the way some people are allowed to call me M__ even though I don't like it because they've ALWAYS done it and some people have to call me M______ because I want to project a different image to those people.

Randomly, I sort of like fics in which Kowalski carries on calling him Fraser after they're a couple, just because he's used to it and/or likes it better than his first name. I think that's a pretty cross-fandom thing for me, though, and I accept that it's weird.

That makes lots of sense, and also explains why I was dithering enough to make the poll -- in the main when I'm writing Fraser-POV fic, it's internal and relationship-oriented enough that it makes sense to me to call him Benton, but the one I've got right now is primarily a casefic, and I kept on switching back and forth without really noticing.

I'm absolutely with you re: Kowalski continuing to call him Fraser, though. Maybe if/when they're a couple he occasionally throws in a first name in the same way that Vecchio occasionally says "Benny" but in the main I think it's odd if Kowalski (or Vecchio, for that matter) doesn't keep using "Fraser."

The problem for me isn't so much logic as it is perception. You're right, I think, that 'Fraser' is invisible, mainly because that is how we hear him addressed over and over in canon. So although logic dictates he probably perceives himself as Benton, we so rarely heard him called Benton, we as the reader/viewer can be jarred by it in fic. I'm finding it really hard to believe the poll numbers as a result.

In any event, it doesn't throw me so much that I can't enjoy a good story, and I do really like the name Benton. But it isn't invisible to me.

Similarly, in Starsky and Hutch fandom, no one ever writes Starsky POV fic as "Dave." That would be...wrong on the scale of infinity. He's just not a Dave. Also, he addresses himself on phone calls and such as "Starsky." Does Fraser, on the show, or does he always say, "This is Benton Fraser" because he's such a formal guy?

Yeah, I'm surprised by the poll numbers too! On the other hand, 'Benton' becomes invisible to me after a sentence or two in the hands of a competent writer, whereas someone can be the best writer in the universe and 'Ben' will still be a neon sign. I don't know!

And I'd have to go through paying attention to make sure, but I think Fraser always introduces himself by full name, even before s3 and the killers-of-my-father speech turned up.

yeah, "Ben" really doesn't work for me. maybe because people called him that as a childhood name (his father in his journal, Quinn) or they weren't very good people (Victoria, Mark.) I can't remember if Eric called him Ben. Mostly, he called him "Mountie," which is very telling, actually, and to me spoke to the divide that must have appeared between them when Fraser decided to follow in his father's footsteps.

Looking at the above threads, I'm not so sure about the 3rd-person issue. I think we in fandom are creating a new issue here that traditional literature really doesn't cover. It didn't need to, since the characters were all original.

hmmm. thinking out loud...3rd person limited is still 3rd person. We don't include mental verbal slang. e.g., you won't see this (hopefully):

Fraser won't fuck Ray up the ass. Ray isn't sure if it's because Fraser is a prude, or because he ain't done this before with another guy.

OTOH, sometimes with 3rd person limited it's fun to let slip in some curses or thoughts...it's a very fuzzy line we smear around. that's how tight we pull the camera in. maybe that's the difference between Benton and Fraser?

just burbling.

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what the hell kind of name is benton

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