aria | sure fire winners

Entry tags:

sure fire winners

I have a confession: for the past few days, in between all the real life stuff I have been doing, I've been spending my free time not doing more of the Babylon 5 rewatch but instead a rewatch of the Methos bits of Highlander. (Why? I need more Methos fic like burning, and with a few excellent exceptions, the stuff that is out there is giving me the "If you want this story told, tell it yourself" feeling. Oops.) I think I am discovering the full extent of my horrible weakness for 90s television. In any case, I am done with that now and we'll soon return to your semi-regularly scheduled B5-watching; in the meantime, the net result of my Highlander rewatch is mumble nearly 10,000 words of fic notes, what is wrong with me and a bunch of screencaps.

The latter are here reposted for your edification.

This is not a Show Is Awesome post. Show is indeed occasionally awesome, but I am not looking for converts; I didn't even watch the whole thing. I think it's cute, and occasionally hilarious, and sometimes even quite good; I think the bits I watched are well worth watching if, like me, you have apparently a bullet-proof character kink for five-thousand-year-old snarky bastards who occasionally save the world because their dumbass boyfriends like to play hero.

In any case, it means that this is instead a Methos And His Frequent Swordporn Are Awesome post. It started out entirely as caps of Methos getting threatened with swords and making great faces about that, but then it got slightly out of control and comes with a Duncan/Methos agenda, which means stuff like painting houses together and slamming each other against Range Rovers. As you do.

So, when we first meet Methos, he's having an off day or something, because he decides it would be a great idea to offer MacLeod his head. Happily it results in this:

Maybe it's how he test-drives new boyfriends.

Anyway, then he regains his senses. And wears a cute sweater.

Maybe Duncan doesn't like the sweater?

Ladies and gentlemen, above I give you, hm, Exhibits A and B that Methos sort of likes being threatened with swords.

They take a short break from being kinky to do domestic instead.

Methos is not best pleased when Duncan mistakes his nose for part of the house.

Then Duncan gets a bit evil.

Also, other people sometimes threaten Methos with swords. I think Methos likes it better when Duncan does it.

Although he's a bit put out when he isn't expecting it and can't consent.

Sometimes even Joe gets in on the action, although he just sticks with guns. This is why Methos looks a bit bored.

I am fairly sure this next cap had to do with Duncan and Methos discussing matters of Deep Philosophical Import (and disagreeing about every salient point, because that's how they roll) but a still reveals that in fact when they argue morality they are trying very hard to keep from making out.

Swordporn. :D

But the sword is no substitute for Duncan! Pay attention, Duncan.

Methos is a bit fed up with Duncan not paying attention, and then his ex Kronos rolls into town. I am fond of the following cap because Methos has his "I'm being threatened with a sword! I'm definitely not turned on!" face, and Kronos doesn't even have a sword.

Which can be remedied.

Interlude for Methos and Duncan throwing each other against a car with BETRAYAL!! (I'm not gonna lie, Comes a Horseman/Revelation 6:8 is up there for me with Mountie on the Bounty. I am sensing a pattern even though there is a bit of a difference between OLD SHIPS and THE APOCALYPSE.) Anyway:

LOOK AT HIS CRAZY EYES.

The following cap cannot actually capture what I love about it, which is Methos sort of ... caressing the sword with his shoulder. The full awesome of that is best with context. (I. love. this. episode.)

Sometime later, apocalypse mostly averted, Methos feels the need to run around mostly naked with his sword. Thank you, Methos.

More swordporn.

But we haven't had someone put a blade to Methos' throat in four whole caps! Quick, Keane to the rescue!

Someone tell me this man does not enjoy being threatened with swords. Anyone?

Alas, that is the last of the swordporn. We do, however, have a cap for that time when Methos was friends with Lord Byron, and Byron, being a man of taste, comes on to Methos. Textually. Methos is about as surprised as I am:

But eventually he goes to hang out with MacLeod again. Maybe when Methos finishes ... cleaning whatever he's cleaning? ... they can go spar. If you know what I mean.

Thank you and goodnight.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Ooog, watching Deliverance was super-frustrating, because my source was missing part 2 of the episode. So I had to go wandering off to try to find a better source, and that TOOK A WHILE.

But finally I succeeded. And wow, Evil!Duncan is kind of a terrible human being. (er, duh, self....) Also, for some reason I actually enjoyed this episode. I actually thought that was done better than Evil!Alternate!Selves often are. Instead of being all, MUAHAHA LET ME TAKE OVER THE WORLD, instead he has fun beating a man up and then seducing his wife, and then steals a sweet car. That seems quite plausible to me.

I bet he is great in bed. But as an asexual I'm more interested in the fact that I bet after five thousand years he's also learned self-control, and that sex isn't always the important thing in a relationship. After all, he has plenty of time for sex later.

My theory (based on really having seen not much of the canon so far) is that Methos DOES have a constant loudly-denied deathwish. After five thousand years, continuing to live feels so pointless. Heck, probably even just after one or two thousand years. BUT NOW HE KNOWS DUNCAN AND HAS REASON TO KEEP LIVING. UNLESS DYING WOULD SERVE DUNCAN BETTER.

I will be able to put together more coherent theories once I've seen more of Methos! And once I've seen some of those Methos-centric historical flashbacks, so I can see what he used to be like as well!

AHHH. I am glad you got it, though! And that you liked it! I have mixed feelings about that one, because, on the one hand, evil!Duncan is awful and interesting and has petty awful goals, all of which is great -- but on the other hand, it's hard to watch. I especially love the scene with Methos and Duncan in the church, though.

~~Oooh, yes! I do get the feeling that whether or not he gets to sleep with Alexa is basically a moot point; he loves her, and that's more than enough. METHOS. <3~~

Mm. Having seen all of Methos, I still kind of go back-and-forth on the deathwish thing. But I kind of suspect that he does too! I like that his internal consistency is more like ... fluidity and adaptation. I mean, he's consistent about his inconsistency? I HOPE THAT MAKES SENSE.

And once I've seen some of those Methos-centric historical flashbacks, so I can see what he used to be like as well!

AHAHAHA. Just. you. wait. :DDD (I am, by the way, dropping unsubtle hints about my favourite two-parter. Don't spoil yourself! Basically it's a lot of stuff about Methos' past, which is why I keep smiling ominously. :D)

OMG THAT EPISODE. OH METHOS. *WIBBLE* Methos/Alexa is basically the most tragic ship in the history of ever, and yet still so awesome. OH METHOS! That scene in the trainyard! *WIBBLES*

Also, on a more shallow note, Amanda's hair looked excellent in this episode. It suits her very well.

(This episode had the SAME PROBLEM as the last one and it took me EVEN LONGER to find a replacement place to watch it, but I think I have now found a more reliable source! \o/)

~~THEIRLOVEISSOTRUE~~

No, you're making perfect sense! I like it!

AHHH I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT TWO-PARTER SO MUCH. Except that I think I actually got spoiled for the thing that you've been dropping your hints about. it's that Methos used to have fun being Death and killed lots 'n lots 'n lots of people, yes?

The next episode = not nearly as exciting. Blah blah blah Scottish history blah. Though I did like that it did interesting things with the way that memory is not always trustworthy, that we remember what we want to remember instead of what actually happened.

And the random throwaway line about Methos and cooking from Roman recipes was lovely. It's nice to hear those little acknowledgements sometimes that yes, he HAS lived through a hell of a lot of history.

Also I forgot to mention a couple episodes ago, the one with the Shakespearean actor: How much do I love it that this show is totally blase and what-of-it with sticking its Manly Heroic Lead into ladies' clothing? THIIIIIS MUCH.

Combination reply!

METHOS/ALEXA. *draws hearts around them* Sort of like I love how Methos talks a good game about enlightened self-interests and then risks his life for his friends, I also love that he spends a lot of time acting very blase about everything, and then BAM, DEEP WELL OF EMOTIONS. <333

I am in complete agreement about Amanda's hair. It's so beautifully striking.

And yeah, you did get spoilered for the thing I am dropping hints about. That's okay, though; I had been vaguely spoiled too and it was still SO AWESOME, plus there is a big difference between knowing the concept and seeing the execution. So to speak.

And ... the next episode was Through A Glass Darkly, right? Yeah, that one's just okay, although the bits of Methos trivia are great. I love that he knows how to cook absurd things!

DSKLFGKJ DUNCAN IN A DRESS. HOW MUCH DO I LOVE DUNCAN IN A DRESS. :D

Mmm, that was a very good episode for showing the contrast between Methos' talk about enlightened self-interest and what he will do for Duncan. METHOS YOU'RE SO AWESOME. And then at the end of the episode he doesn't even keep the barge! He was just screwing with Duncan! LOLOLOLOL. Also I adore the scenes of Duncan/Methos banter in that episode.

Also, the opening scene of the episode...Gina and Robert are kinda kinky! I'm impressed with the show for going there!

Methos mentions in this episode that he hasn't gotten between a married couple for 2000 years. Now I'm really curious what happened the last time he got between a married couple, because I'm guessing it was a particularly impressively bad reaction!

I <3 METHOS' DEEP WELL OF EMOTIONS.

And her hair is especially striking when she's also wearing that lovely white coat. I am basically in love with how she looked throughout that whole episode.

I know what you mean about spoilers! And, well, I often spoiler myself on purpose for things, so it's not like spoilers are a hardship or anything. I'm really excited to see just how it will pan out!

JOE! NOOOOOO!

(also: awwww, Methos, sharing such a personal document like that for the sake of Duncan and Joe. You're so awesome, Methos. And I want to know the story of the friendship he had with his watcher!)

And now to watch the to be continued, to make sure that Joe isn't actually dead.

O.M.G. That episode. THINGS HAVE CHANGED! Methos has disappeared, after having a crisis of self! Joe and Duncan aren't friends! Basically everyone spent the entire episode double-crossing each other for what they thought were good reasons, and then everything went wrong! FLAIL!

Consolidated reply again!

I LOVE TILL DEATH. It is such a good one for lighthearted fun and seeing all the good bits of Duncan and Methos' friendship. I adore the way Methos keeps winding him up. And the COOKIES.

Gina and Robert are kinda kinky! I'm impressed with the show for going there!

There are a couple of times when I'm impressed with the show for going there, wherever there is. Including a bit with a Quickening and a thing and a mumble spoiler mumble. :D

Now I'm really curious what happened the last time he got between a married couple

If that fic hasn't been written yet, I know what I have to do.

I'm also fairly sure I'd love to go shopping and get a makeover with Amanda. And those aren't even activities that I usually do for fun. But I want Amanda to be my BFF anyway.

And ooooh, the Watcher two-parter. It's kind of bruising, isn't it? :( The next one is great follow-up, though.

<3333 The Messenger is an excellent episode. It addresses something that I've been thinking about a lot in relation to the Highlander universe -- the possibility of pacifism within the immortal community. And...well, now it's been canonically proven that it doesn't work. *sigh*

But the alternate Methos was fascinating, in a very un-Methos-like way. It was very well done, and very believable. And very sad. That bit where he kneels before what's-his-name, and I'm all like, HOW COULD ANYONE KILL THAT FACE? and then what's-his-name beheads him. NOOOOOO.

Also! This would be the ep you referred to with the Methos lounging on Duncan's bed! It was excellent. And it also contains more of Methos doing what Duncan wants him to do even when he doesn't particularly feel like it. OH METHOS YOU'RE NOT FOOLING ANYONE.

Including a bit with a Quickening and a thing and a mumble spoiler mumble. :D

Ooh, are you referring to the double Quickening referred to here (http://aria.dreamwidth.org/91128.html?thread=1085688#cmt1085688) in your comments? Because I am definitely looking forward to that! I do love it when the creators include homoerotic imagery or subtext on purpose.

I know what I have to do.

YES. :DDDDD

And I think I'm with you on going shopping and makeovering and BFFing with Amanda! She obviously has impeccable taste. (My taste is a lot more...eclectic than hers. I do wonder what she'd think of it.)

Isn't it lovely? <3 Alas, there's always going to be some Immortal bastard who wants to kill you. (I do wonder where the concept of the Game and the whole 'there can be only one' thing came from. I don't think I'd blame Methos for it, but I would want to know if he has any idea.)

Duncan has Methos kind of whipped, actually! It is hilarious, especially because I'm pretty sure Duncan doesn't really notice.

And yep, that's what I'm referring to! IT IS SO RIDICULOUS. THERE IS SO MUCH LIGHTNING. AND HOMOEROTICISM. AND YAY.

I think Amanda would forgive you your eclectic taste! After all, she seems to find Duncan attractive, and half the time I don't know what he's wearing.

Oh Methos, laughing at Duncan struggling with yet another moral dilemma. But it does intrigue me, that this is actually the episode that comes directly after The Messenger. Both of them are about when it is right to kill and when it isn't. Last episode argued that there are times when killing is right. This episode is refining that argument, to say that killing actually isn't always the right response to evil, that it's more complicated than that.

Also: fascinating moral discussions between Methos and Duncan: about whether Hitler was Hitler because the time was ripe, or whether Hitler was Hitler because he was Hitler; about whether the ends justify the means, and believing that you're making the world a better place makes it okay ("What was his name? Adolf... something or other"); about what's the difference between Duncan killing Ingrid and Ingrid killing those other people ("Good question! Right up there with chicken and egg").

This show... I went into it expecting lolarious 90s cheese with added bonus awesome character, and there keep on being these startlingly good episodes among the cheese. It's impressive!

Also, Methos telling Joe "Pretty smart...for a kid" made me think again about how this show, like Doctor Who, does interesting things with one's perception of age. Methos looks all young and helpless and young, while Joe looks old and grizzled and experienced. But compared to Methos' age, Joe's hardly been alive long at all. It's so easy to get drawn into thinking about someone being the age they look, instead of the age they are, and reacting to them as such. It makes for fascinating dynamics! (And reminds me of how much I'd love it if the Doctor had someone old along as a companion on a semi-longterm basis. I loved seeing him interact with Wilf, for instance, but that was not for long at all.)

ANYWAYS. I do wonder about the "there can be only one" thing too. I mean, the immortals are forever killing each other on this show. But the immortals are ALSO being friends, lovers, acquaintances. There's community and fellowship among the immortals -- it's obviously NOT just all about trying to be the only one left. Gina and Robert marrying, Duncan mentoring Richie, Methos and Duncan being friends, all the other instances of friendship that have been showcased in individual episodes. So it seems clear that although The Game is an important part of immortal life, it's not the be-all and end-all. And Methos may be the oldest immortal still alive, but I don't think he was the first immortal. I'd be willing to bet that the Game was alive and kicking long before Methos was born.

I think Duncan just sort of expects the people he hangs out with the do the right thing! So when he manages, time and again, to convince Methos to do what Duncan thinks is right, he doesn't think anything of it, when to an outside observer it is SO OBVIOUS that Duncan has Methos whipped.

Apparently I don't pay enough attention to the clothing of people other than Amanda! Because I couldn't tell you what Duncan tends to wear, other than generic guy clothes and a really kickass long coat. (mmmm, this show really panders to my thing for long coats. I LOVE IT.)

I love the startlingly good episodes among the cheese! Also, now you're up to Comes a Horseman/Revelation 6:8, which EEE I AM SO EXCITED TO SEE WHAT YOU THINK OF THOSE. Especially on the heels of the last two, because they're sort of the warm-up, particularly the last conversation in The Messenger, about people-or-history and who has a right to judge us -- because the upcoming two-parter is all about the historical contexts in which Methos lives and whether or not Duncan has the right to judge him. Which is pretty excellent.

Re: age: yes, and I love that there is so much Joe-and-Methos interaction. Because of course a lot of the time Joe is the youngest person in the room. (I do think, though, that he and Methos have a lot in common that Duncan doesn't share with either of them -- see, for instance, Duncan and Joe's respective reactions when they learn about Methos' past. And a lot of the time Joe just gets Methos better than Duncan does.) I also like that Amanda is actually a little over twice Duncan's age, because it's like they ... take turns acting condescending towards each other? It's ridiculously cute to me.

I do love that there are Immortal communities, yes -- and if you pay attention, a lot of the time Methos seems to know a lot about various Immortals who have a past with Duncan, which either means that he's been using the Watcher database to be a stalkerface for years (likely) or that he also knows a lot of these people. (Also likely!) It's especially noticeable with Kristin, but I think it happens a few other times too. And who knows how many Immortals are in the world at any given time, but even if the number hovered around five thousand, a lot of them would still know each other, have histories and communities and &c. (I can just imagine how intensely awkward it would be if Methos and Duncan ever discovered they were the only two left. Methos would definitely pull the "take my head" thing again, wouldn't he.)

And yeah, Duncan does just sort of expect the best of people! Which is slightly unfortunate, actually, because -- okay, let me do what I call a Fraser Comparison, because Duncan and Fraser have enough in common that I find myself doing that. When Fraser expects the best of people, it's that he sees their potential and gently nurtures as many good impulses in those around him as he can. He wants you to do your best. When Duncan expects the best of people, it's because it's the only way to be; to do otherwise is unthinkable. So when Methos does what Duncan thinks is right, he's doing it not so much because Duncan's approval would be nice but because he needs it. Which ... makes them sound about as codependent as they are, I guess. And meanwhile Duncan doesn't notice that Methos is doing anything above and beyond what he should, which sucks for Methos.

Amanda wears amazing things; Methos wears adorable baggy sweaters, possibly to deflect, but also really excellent tight jeans; Joe actually dresses a lot like Methos, if looser on the jeans -- maybe there's a Watcher casual dress code?; Duncan generally wears fairly unflattering slacks, sweaters that fit him a lot better than Methos', and that awesome, awesome coat. :D

OH. MY. GOD. THAT EPISODE. No, I didn't have tears in my eyes, what are you talking about? Nope. Not me.

But THAT SCENE! Where Methos is telling Duncan alllll the details about what he did, and that he liked it, in what I interpret as an attempt to drive Duncan away (to save Duncan's life!) And then Duncan says they're finished, and Methos gets into his car and his head just sinks towards the steering wheel and OH METHOS.

BRB, watching next episode, will reply to the stuff in your comment at that point. NEED TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENS NEXT!

THEY ARE SOME OF MY FAVOURITE EPISODES ON THE PLANET. THAT SCENE.

I am very excited for your full thoughts on them. :DDD

I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN ABOUT HOW AWESOME THESE EPISODES ARE. alkdghdkls;askhgkd

OH METHOS I WANT TO GIVE YOU A HUG. ACTUALLY I WANT DUNCAN TO GIVE YOU A HUG.

Also, random thing, but I liked the little character touch in the insane asylum with Silas playing his flute. And it made the bit where Methos says brokenly, "I liked Silas" that much worse. OH METHOS.

I'm afraid I can't be more coherent than that over this episode! But basically it was awesome in every way.

I loved the way that there was, like, thematic continuity through the last four episodes. SO GREAT. It is a cheesy fantasy tv show with major themes about good and evil, and the show's conclusion is that THINGS ARE COMPLICATED! HOW MUCH DO I LOVE THIS! Seriously, SO MUCH LOVE. I think, upon reflection, that acknowledgements of the non-binary nature of morality is one of my favourite things ever in a show or a book. <33333

So yet again I'm sitting here going.... "startlingly good! Again!" I need to start expecting excellence on this show's part or something. Because it keeps on doing this!

You're right, Joe IS often the youngest person in the room! I don't know why that never clicked! Probably in part because Duncan is forever going to him to ask for advice/help, so despite his (relatively speaking) young age he keeps getting put into the role of Wise Old Mentor.

I also managed to not clue in that Amanda's that much older than Methos -- I mean, I knew it intellectually but never put it together. It makes their relationship dynamics even more interesting!

Methos the stalkerface! Yes, very plausible. Extremely plausible, in fact. Oh Methos you adorable ridiculous person you.

Oh, gosh, yes, if Methos and Duncan were ever the last two left Methos would TOTALLY pull that sacrificial act again. Methos' enlightened self-interest, meet Methos' lack of self-esteem when it comes to comparing himself with Duncan. Duncan wouldn't do it though, of course, but it would be HILARIOUS to see Methos try. (And by hilarious I actually mean also rather touching and adorable on top of the hilarious. I think I am never going to stop finding Methos adorable.)

I very much like your comparison with Fraser! I think it's a really accurate analysis of the different ways in which they expect the best of people. And oh Methos, forever trying to get Duncan's approval! And Methos would never ever ask, so he's stuck just doing what he's doing and never getting the acknowledgement he needs.

Now that you mention it, I had actually noticed the unflattering slacks! Methinks Amanda needs to take him out shopping instead of us!

And now for random other stuff that's not episode-related but that I've been thinking about:

One: what happens when a pre-immortal gets their first death while they're still a baby? The parents of said baby would be really confused when it never got any older. I wonder, actually, if something like that is what caused the legend of changelings to start. But if something like that happened in the modern day? I don't even know what would happen. (at any rate, I'd guess that the immortal baby would be beheaded pretty early in its life!)

Two: When an immortal gets an injury that would kill a normal human, what exactly happens? Do they die, and then come back to life? Does the wound (or the poison, or whatever) heal fast enough that death never actually arrives? And how long does this process take, of becoming hale again? Obviously getting shot with a bullet slows an immortal down some -- knocks them down onto the ground, in fact. But how much time does that actually buy you? And why don't more of the 'evil' immortals make more use of that -- shoot first, and then come up and cut the head off while the other person is helpless?

Three: is it really only head-cut-off that causes death for immortals? What if they were burned to a crisp with no skin or muscles or internal organs or even bones left, and then the ashes scattered widely? What if they were exploded into a million pieces with a really big bomb? What if they were crushed flat by a hundred thousand pounds of steel?

Four: I've watched enough episodes by now to have something of a handle on Methos' character. Enough anyways to look at how he'd fit onto my chart of Character Traits I Love. And it looks like he'd join the Doctor, Kowalski, Fraser, Sheppard and McKay in fulfilling all seven of the traits. In other words, he's fast becoming one of my FAVOURITE CHARACTERS EVER as well....

DFSKLDFSKJ I KNOW :DDDD

I think one of the brilliant things about the episode is that you kind of like Silas too! I mean, yes, he thinks that Killing People Is Good Fun, but he thinks it in a really ... non-malicious way? And he wants a monkey!

I'm fairly sure that the emotional continuity even continues into the next episode, but after that the Methos bits become much more scattershot again, so if there is emotional continuity going on, you might not see it. (Plus the series was drawing to a close, and they were experimenting with new formats, or ... something, I am unclear on this. Anyway, you are a good deal of your way through the Really Good Bits.)

I agree, though. Duncan REALLY needs to give Methos a hug. Also, I wish that Duncan would give Methos some genuine spoken-aloud approval, but he's completely rubbish at that. Of course Methos would be all prickly and pretend to not want to hear it, but that doesn't mean that Duncan shouldn't say something.

I think the age differences are REALLY FUN, because really it's Methos is older than Amanda is older than Duncan is older than Joe, whereas anyone casually observing them might ... put it in exactly reverse order, maybe? It's great.

Amanda definitely needs to take Duncan shopping. When the best part of your wardrobe is your awesome silver hair-clip, drastic measures must be taken.

Re: the other random stuff:

One: unless a really awful violent death happened to the baby, I don't think a baby would be made Immortal? It'd just be a really healthy baby. But who knows! I do know from my vague wandering through episode summaries, though, that there was once a kid whose first death happened when he was twelve; he managed to stay alive a long time by being unobtrusive, but he became a jaded old man in a child's body. Just ... eugh. Keep pre-Immortal children away from dangerous things!

Two: I am pretty sure that being shot/stabbed/etc will kill an Immortal, albeit briefly. (That's how Kronos managed to get Methos to his evil lair without much fuss, for instance; he said hello by stabbing him in the chest.) And ... maybe even evil Immortals abide by the rules of the Game, at least to a certain degree? I wondered it myself, actually. (I mean, you'll discover next episode that Methos keeps a second small sword handy for any literal or metaphorical backstabbing he might need to do, so what's to stop someone further down the moral greyscale from having a gun? SO MANY QUESTIONS.)

Three: you'd think some Immortals might get burned at the stake and stay dead, yeah. I think anything that severs your head from your body would do, so absolutely a bad-enough-explosion bomb would do it. I'm also under the impression that some wounds they get are too bad to properly heal -- Kalas' vocal chords, for instance. I imagine that Immortals with decapitated limbs wouldn't regrow them either.

Four: OH YES I KNOW. I don't know whether he had me at Alexa, but he definitely had me after the two-parter. :D

Hokay, have seen the next episode now! And oh gosh, I love it SO MUCH that Methos SHOT DUNCAN IN THE BACK in order to duel on his behalf. Methos is a sneaky two-timing bastard, but a sneaky two-timing bastard in order to help his friend! *happy sigh*

And then when the police cars showed up? I actually laughed out loud -- going by Methos' actions in Methos, I knew he had no compunction about calling the police on a duel, and so I thought it was Methos continuing his tricksy ways. And when it turned out it was Amanda instead? THAT WAS TOTALLY OKAY WITH ME TOO. GO AMANDA.

I love the whole "Methos and Amanda team up on Duncan to make him see sense" thing that this episode has going on. It is so great. (and I am beginning to see where the Duncan/Amanda/Methos shippers are coming from!)

AND this episode continues the themes of moral grey areas, which makes me super happy. And! The bit at the end, where Duncan says, "He's not that different; none of us are. We all make mistakes." And Methos responds, "And we all have mistakes to forgive." Methos is more or less pointing out what that vid "Unbelieivable" is, that Duncan doesn't have the moral high ground to have judged Methos so hard in Comes a Horseman/Revelation 6:8. \o/

he thinks that Killing People Is Good Fun, but he thinks it in a really ... non-malicious way?

I know what you mean! Caspian is insane, and Kronos is twisted, but Silas (if it weren't for the fact that he doesn't see anything wrong with killing other people) seems like a good guy!

Of course Methos would be all prickly and pretend to not want to hear it, but that doesn't mean that Duncan shouldn't say something.

SO MUCH YES.

One: Yeah, I was thinking about what would happen if a baby pre-immortal died a violent death. I mean, it DOES happen occasionally. Although -- now I'm wondering. What constitutes a violent-enough death to trigger the immortality thing? Does it have to be someone killing you on purpose, or does being accidentally dropped on your head (or something like that) count?

Two: okay, so it's not a...healing coma they go into when deathly injured but an actual death? Good to know. (Methos and his backstabbing! I love it.) I wonder what would make the evil immortals abide by the rules, though! If there's nothing enforcing them (which there doesn't seem to be) then it is an honour thing, and we've definitely seen immortals with little enough honour that I wouldn't think they'd have any compunctions about using a gun to make a fight easier. I am just so curious now!

Three: Yeah, I'd noticed Kronos' face-scar as well, and wondered. (for some reason I didn't think to wonder about Kalas' vocal chords!) In that case, I'd expect to see a lot more scarred immortals wandering around, then. I mean, considering the length of time they live, and how much violence their lives seem to hold, I should think that they would receive terrible-but-not-deadly wounds often enough that we'd have met more than just two scarred immortals by this point!

Four: Oh, he had me at the Alexa thing already. I was sold. I was just...irretreivably so, I guess, after the two-parter!

I LOVE IT WHEN METHOS SHOOTS DUNCAN IN THE BACK. :D I also love that, while things have obviously been either intensely awkward or they've been avoiding each other entirely since Bordeaux, Methos will still get in fights to the death to protect Duncan. Methos is basically a lost cause. <333

I am also really down with Duncan/Amanda/Methos, let me tell you! (Actually, I ship them very much the same way I ship Fraser/Vecchio/Kowalski, hilariously enough. One of them is Morally Upright and Does the Right Thing! The other two love him enough that they try to do the right thing too, but they flounder a bit and have to turn to each other because Fraser or Duncan is sometimes basically inexplicable to them! I am very fond of this dynamic, apparently.)

Yes for the moral gray areas! Also, I love how that was basically Duncan and Methos talking it out without talking it out at all, but probably being a bit more comfortable around each other again by the end. Next episode continues the morally gray party, and in such a big way that I don't even know what the answer is, which is pretty awesome.

Caspian is insane, and Kronos is twisted, but Silas (if it weren't for the fact that he doesn't see anything wrong with killing other people) seems like a good guy!

Exactly! Actually, the way I think of the Horsemen is something like this: Silas and Methos basically are brothers; Silas is the dumb young musclebound one who hero worships his brainiac older brother. Meanwhile, Kronos is Methos' way-cool no-good boyfriend, and Caspian is Kronos' mad lapdog. More or less. (...no, part of the big ridiculous fic I'm trying to write doesn't have Horsemen flashbacks, why do you ask?)

One: God, I don't ... I don't even know. Contemplating Immortal babies is absolutely horrific.

Two: Yep, actual death! Also, I don't know why evil Immortals wouldn't carry guns or something, seriously. You've probably noticed that Watchers frequently don't hesitate to kill Immortals temporarily in order to contain them and kill them for real. On the other hand, maybe that's the answer? Like, maybe ... obviously, Quickenings don't work if your opponent is temporarily dead, though why you couldn't just disable them with a gun and then go for it, I still don't know. Maybe Quickenings still don't work right if you cheat too much? *handwaves* I mean, Kalas was willing to take Methos' head in order to get an edge on Duncan, but he wasn't willing to just shoot him in the knee, and I'd like there to be some reason for that besides plot. Oh well.

Three: You'd think that Methos would have some scars, at least. I think it's just one of those things they never really worked out the rules for. (This bothers me a lot, actually! I read an incredibly good fic last week where, among other many plotty things, Methos gets tortured in ancient backstory. And I was sitting there going "BUT HOW WOULD THAT NOT HAVE LEFT SOME KIND OF MARK??" Especially since it then turned out that the Immortal villain of the piece was severely crippled. ARGH THE RULES OF THIS UNIVERSE.)

Four: Well, I think he actually had me at that half-smile of acknowledgment when Duncan first says his name, but that sounds absurd. :D

Mm, now that was a fascinating episode. You're right about it being a continuation of the morally gray funtimes, and... yeah. Fascinating. Well, Byron himself was a fascinating person.

I am fascinated by the group dynamics of the people in the flashback: Byron and Methos and Mary and Percy and the other random ladies. Methos seems to stick fairly thoroughly to more conventional morals, and Byron seems to have no patience for such conventions, so it is impressive to me that they are as close as they are. Also: Byron suggested to Methos a threesome with the two of them and Mary. And it appears to me that if Mary hadn't been half-unconscious, but had instead been willing, Methos might even have taken Byron up on it! This is another of those times when I'm like, wow, show, you went there? Applause!

I'm also intrigued by how highly Methos apparently values art: the poems that Byron has written, and the music that he has made and will make (...would have made). But on the other hand, Byron is Methos' friend, and we have seen many times the things Methos is willing to do for people he cares about! So that makes me wonder whether the valuing of art is just something he's saying to try to convince Duncan, as opposed to actually believing it. (I watched a commentary on Youtube that Peter Wingfield had done, for the episode Methos, and he talked about how he's not exactly sure you can ever believe Methos is in earnest about the things he says and does.) But I do like the idea of a Methos who's passionate about art!

Although .. it is clear that no matter how much he cares about Byron (whether as a friend or as an artist), Duncan is infinitely more important. Because when his argument fails, he just lets Duncan go fight Byron, instead of doing something tricksy to make things work out so that everyone lives.

The Mary Shelley of this episode also fascinates me! Although I can't help but feel like this version of events is somehow...insulting Mary's powers of imagination. The implication is quite strong that Mary could not have written Frankenstein without being handed her topic on a platter, as it were.

Also, now I kind of want to see this comic (http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=56) with added Methos. :D

I believe I've mentioned before my awful facial recognition skills. Well, having a character besides Duncan in this episode who had long curly brown hair was a problem. I kept on mistaking Mike for Duncan, in the scenes where Mike had his hair out of his hat. *facepalm*

Methos is basically a lost cause. <333

Yeah, he so is! It is a constant cause of amusement and adoration in me towards him.

I think I actually also ship Duncan/Methos/Amanda in the same way that I ship Fraser/Vecchio/Kowalski. Except it's a very different way from how you ship them... It's basically a situation where I OTP two out of the three people, but then that's being mean to the third person, so I include said third person to make them happy as well. But if the third person can be made happy in some other way instead, then that's good too.

And the canonical Duncan/Amanda relationship is rather interesting anyways. I mean, Amanda feels free to go off with a guy from a club to go have sex with him (even if it ends up actually ending in swords). And Amanda refers to Duncan as her best friend, not her boyfriend. It seems to me that it's actually more of a friends-with-benefits situation than a relationship. Which makes me feel one of two things: one, she'd be totally open to including Methos in the relationship, because it means awesome sex and making Duncan happy and having a sensible person to back her up against Duncan's sometimes ridiculous sense of honour; or two, she wouldn't be left bereft if Duncan and Methos got together, because she'd continue to be close friends with Duncan anyways, and be perfectly happy getting her sex elsewhere.

ANYWAYS. I've possibly been thinking too much about relationship permutations. *cough*

Your description of the roles of the Horsemen is very much YES. So I am VERY HAPPY to hear that there will be flashbacks to them in your fic! \o/

Two: I'd like there to be some reason for that besides plot.

Me too. Very much so. I am working on trying to come up with a theory that actually makes sense of the canon, but...thus far I am not succeeding in coming up with anything reasonable. *sigh*

Three: I know! Methos is FIVE THOUSAND YEARS OLD. That is a LONG time in which to acquire scars! It always makes me sad when creators of a TV show don't think about creating sensible rules for things. And I think this one will be even harder to handwave a reason for than the stuff from point two. *another sigh*

Four: Well, technically speaking, he had me from before I even started watching the first episode, because of your squee and picspam. :D So it doesn't sound at all absurd to me for you to have been caught from that awesome little smile!

Three: And now after this episode I'm wondering, what sort of long-term effects you'd get from drug-use as an immortal. Is the harm it causes you considered minor enough that it heals up? Or are you left with a messed-up brain, for the rest of your extremely long life?

Well, that was interesting. And by "interesting" I mean "really weird".

I kinda figured that the only non-mortal type beings in the world were the Immortals. But apparently this demon type thing exists as well! So now I'm wondering just what all else exists in the Highlander universe as well, that we just haven't run across yet.

Also, THEY KILLED RICHIE. I mean, Richie was young and impetuous and kind of annoying sometimes, but he was well-meaning and nice and meant a lot to Duncan and Joe, and now he's dead. Of a weird creepy world-destroying demon type thing.

But by the end of the episode, neither Joe nor Methos had yet seen a single thing to demonstrate that MacLeod ISN'T just going mad, so hopefully they do something about that in the next chronological episode, which I'm not watching because it doesn't have Methos in it. But why DOESN'T it have Methos in it? That was the first of a three-parter, and Methos was definitely worried about Duncan. He wouldn't just randomly abandon Duncan when Duncan has to face this world-destroying demon! That's not Methos' style! GAH.

Going back first to things re: the Byron episode:

Methos seems to stick fairly thoroughly to more conventional morals, and Byron seems to have no patience for such conventions, so it is impressive to me that they are as close as they are.

Aha! We come here to my Theory About Methos' Immortal Boyfriends (& Love Life In General). Basically, when Methos gets lonely and wants to have companionship, as you would if you lived for millennia, he does something in the realm of what we saw with Alexa. He'll find a mortal woman he connects with, and he'll build a life with her for as long as she's around to share it -- see his sixty-eight wives comment, although I suspect he was making up that figure in order to mess with Duncan. I still definitely believe he's been married, though, and also that he would totally never get involved with another Immortal that way because it's too much commitment!

Except that he hung out with Kronos for a long time. I think the Horsemen thing is the most major commitment he's ever made! And I suspect it's kind of a pattern -- he's deeply drawn to passionate Immortals with interesting personalities, firm convictions, &c. Kronos was the first, Byron definitely fits, and for most of the time we see him, Methos is doing some pretty crazy stuff to hang out with Duncan and keep him safe. He doesn't necessarily agree with either of them, but you don't see him easily walking away, either. Anyway! That's why it makes sense to me that Methos and Byron were close.

Re: Duncan being more important than Byron, I do think that's true, but I also think there's a bit more at work. Byron clearly wants to die. If Methos is trying to persuade Duncan to keep him alive, it's for pretty selfish reasons -- he doesn't want to lose a friend, possibly doesn't want to lose Byron's art (and I agree, I love the idea of Methos as someone who appreciates art; if you look at his various flats, they're full of weird artsy things, so either that's his Adam Pierson pose or he just likes collecting awesome things). I think he didn't stop Duncan because killing Byron may have been a questionable thing to do, but it was what Duncan and Byron both wanted.

I have really mixed feelings about Mary Shelley in that episode! On the one hand, I adore her relationship with Methos. On the other, yeah, it's deeply unfair to the scope of her imagination -- and, okay, the English major in me is rolling her eyes HARD at the idea that the social commentary in Frankenstein could be reduced to "it's secretly about Immortals!" Also, I dunno, I feel like Mary here was ... frail in a way that seemed wrong? Yes, she was devastated by her daughter's death, but ... urk, I dunno.

Re: canonical Duncan/Amanda, SO MUCH YES. They're clearly best buddies, and they clearly love each other so, so much, but what they have is clearly so much more friends-with-benefits than it is a romance. I don't think Duncan could ever really trust Amanda enough to be in love with her, and meanwhile Amanda, who is actually much better at acting out Methos' principles of survival than Methos is, probably just doesn't fall in love period. It's not one of her priorities! She loves Mac to death, but a romance would just be silly. So yeah, if Duncan/Methos happened, she might be interested in being in on the action, but if they didn't want that or it never came up, she'd be content to go on her merry way and just turn up to bug them occasionally. <333 AMANDA.

Three: I wonder if I could come up with a plausible explanation or a plot reason for Methos to not have scars. Hmm.

Re: drug use, the fanon at least states that, yeah, the effects would be temporary, and also probably wouldn't last as long for an Immortal. I think Byron being messed up was independent of the chemical whatever.

I don't know what to do with Archangel, honestly, or with season six. Like, killing Richie has MASSIVE REPERCUSSIONS, because Duncan raised this kid, and has been sort of wrestling with issues of morality lately anyway, and -- honestly it's amazing he didn't just do a Warren Cochrane-style shutdown when that happened. I think what happens is that after Methos refuses to take Duncan's head, Duncan flees for the hills and figures out a way to defeat the demon whatsit without endangering any of his other friends. But after that, I don't think Duncan and Methos see each other for quite a while, and when they do (in the series finale, no less! they have so little screentime together after the Richie thing, and it frustrates the hell out of me) they're just right back to their Duncan does something stupid, Methos rescues him pattern. I want resolution! In a way it's kind of a blessing, because it means I can take all these thematic things and wrestle them out in fic, but after all the excellent follow-through in season five, it's a bit argh-inducing.

Also, IDK what to do about there being real demons in this world. Just. WHAT.

Augh, I'd written most of a reply and then my computer was stupid and I lost what I'd written. *sigh* So if this isn't as wordy as I usually get, that's why....

So! The episode! I love the Joe And Methos Show! They play off each other so interestingly, and very different from the Duncan And Methos Show. It's great to see how Duncan's two best friends interact when he's not around.

And I seem to recall I had several at least somewhat intelligent things to say about the episode the first time I typed this comment up, but they've mostly fled my mind now. The one thing I remember is that I love the way Methos knew Joe was lying about the phone call, but said nothing about it until Joe confessed, and then Methos explained all the little tells that let him know. His ability to notice things, I think, is a large part of the reason why he's lived so long!

Theory About Methos' Immortal Boyfriends (& Love Life In General)

OMG I love this theory. It makes so much sense.

Actually, "Yes you are so right" is basically my reaction to everything you talk about in your comment. <3

Re: Methos' lack of scars, and an explanation thereof. If you could pull off a rational explanation I would love it SO MUCH. Because right now I'm not seeing my way towards one, no matter how hard I try.

although I suspect he was making up that figure in order to mess with Duncan.

I do wonder sometimes how much of the stuff he tells Duncan is lies in order to mess with him -- because messing with him is fun. Do you know if the flashbacks are supposed to be truthful representations of what happened in history? Because often they come up when one character is telling another character about something from their past, and the flaskback is there to be more exciting than listening to the speechifying. In which case it's possible the flashbacks are a visual representation of what the one character is telling the other, which means that stuff we see in flashbacks could be lies sometimes too. But it's quite possible I'm forgetting something obvious here that would make it clear which type of thing the flashbacks are supposed to be....

re: there being real demons in this world. I JUST realized that I think that's actually super-relevant to a fic I'm trying (and thus far failing) to write. Which means I think I need at some point to watch the rest of that three-parter....

Aw, I'm sorry it ate your reply!

I love that Methos knows Joe is lying and goes with him anyway. I mean, on the one hand it's a bit cruel of him to keep Joe in agonies like that, but I think Joe really is going to live with himself better for having confessed voluntarily -- and it's sort of amazing that Methos was absolutely willing to stay even though Joe was selling him out ... probably because he knows Joe really well at this point, and knew Joe wouldn't go through with it. So yeah, absolutely his ability to notice things, and to know people, is a large part of the reason he's stayed alive so long.

"Yes you are so right" is basically my reaction to everything you talk about in your comment. <3

YAY. :D As you can probably tell, I have spent way too much time coming up with many Theories of Methos.

Re: Methos' lack of scars, that ... sounds like a fic challenge, actually. I WILL TRY TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING.

I assume that Methos' stories are about sixty percent true to forty percent complete bullshit, but no one knows which is which and he isn't likely to tell you.

As to the truthfulness of the flashbacks, ooh, that's a good point! As far as I can recall, they are supposed to be accurate representations rather than stories -- not least because I don't know if they always involve actions that the characters would happily admit to -- but that's a good point. I think Through a Glass Darkly is the only time when we see two wildly different versions of the same event, the stuff with Bonnie Prince Charlie, but it's definitely a valid thing to think about and play with more generally.

Re: demons, I spent the first two parts of the three-parter muttering about how Evil Demons Omg completely invalidated all the excellent morally gray Methos stuff, but actually ... it doesn't! It's pretty cool, in a weirdass philosophy sort of way.

OH LOOK I'M FINALLY BACK HERE. Yes, I've seen the last two episodes now! Sorry for being such a flake and putting it off inexplicably like this....

(I got distracted by the fanfic. There's a lot of very excellent fanfic. And a lot of mediocre but somehow still engaging fanfic. I've been enjoying both very much.)

It was kind of weird coming back to watching the show after immersing myself in the fic for so long -- I've been really loving the fic, but watching these eps reminded me that yes, I love the show too, in a very different way. They fulfill different needs, and I shouldn't neglect the show for the fanfic's sake!

ANYWAYS. That was certainly an odd choice as to how to end a show. I suppose I can see the point: "look how important MacLeod's been over the course of the series!" But it's a weird type of closure.

And besides, I don't actually think MacLeod had THAT much incredible influence that SO MUCH would have been different without him. He was the one thing that stopped there from being this whole war between the Watchers and Immortals? Really?

Nonetheless, they were very interesting episodes! I squirmed in sympathy for the terrible fates of the characters SO MUCH over the course of them. Joe, a bitter beggar on the street! Amanda, heartless and after nothing but money! Tessa (who I'm now familiar with from listening to Sentientcitizen (http://sentientcitizen.livejournal.com/) talk about Season One) being all unfulfilled and passionless! Richie, trying to kill Joe! And then getting killed by Methos! Methos, being all brotherly with Kronos again! NOOOOOOO!

So yeah, it was certainly an emotionally effective pair of episodes...even if I was also finding myself giggling at ridiculousnesses, or trying to talk to the characters through my computer screen to make them be sensible.

Something I find fascinating, about the way Duncan reacts to the various things he sees in this alternate reality, though: He sees that Amanda has turned into a killer, and his response is to try to convince her she's a good person. He sees that Methos has turned (back) into a killer, and his response is to try to kill him. Apparently he still has some trust issues to work through as regards his instinctive reactions towards Methos....

I am very curious as to all of Methos' motivations and inner thoughts in this alternate reality. According to Fitz, without Duncan Methos just hadn't become enough of a different person. I would definitely agree that it's because of Duncan not being there that Methos acquiesced to joining the Horsemen again. And that it IS what Methos would have done if he'd never known Duncan (or someone like him). But...to a 5000 year old person, a couple years isn't enough to change who you really are. Methos doesn't become a different person over the course of knowing MacLeod; he's the same person, he just has more motivation to do what's "right" because he respects MacLeod's opinion so much. That's my working theory right now, anyways.

At any rate, it was pretty tragic to watch Methos be all adorably Methos-like, only doing really nasty things all adorably Methos-like.

And finally, wow, cheesy montage set to Bonny Portmore as the way to spend the last few minutes of the final episode? Interesting choice! I pretty much giggled my whole way through it. Although now every time I hear Bonny Portmore I shall be thoroughly reminded of Highlander. (according to Wikipedia the song's been used in four different eps of Highlander, PLUS the third movie. Weird! It's not a song I would have thought of as being Highlandery enough to warrant that much use!)

As you can probably tell, I have spent way too much time coming up with many Theories of Methos.

This is a very good thing! Your Theories of Methos are always interesting. And it's fascinating to try to dissect the guy and figure out how he works. Now that I've read a whole bunch of fanfic about him, it's fascinating to see the many different ways in which people interpret him! And I wouldn't even call a lot of these interpretations OOC -- they're fairly valid interpretations of the source material. (...well. Not all of them are valid.)

Re: Methos' lack of scars: YES YES YES. I look forward to hearing what you come up with!

It's pretty cool, in a weirdass philosophy sort of way.

Ooh, I kind of like weirdass philosophy. I'll have to get around to watching those episodes at some point! But it turns out the demons aren't relevant to my fic after all, so I don't need to watch them for that reason, so if I know myself at all it'll....probably be a while before I get around to them.

sure fire winners

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!

Re: FLAILY TIME!