aria | sure fire winners

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sure fire winners

I have a confession: for the past few days, in between all the real life stuff I have been doing, I've been spending my free time not doing more of the Babylon 5 rewatch but instead a rewatch of the Methos bits of Highlander. (Why? I need more Methos fic like burning, and with a few excellent exceptions, the stuff that is out there is giving me the "If you want this story told, tell it yourself" feeling. Oops.) I think I am discovering the full extent of my horrible weakness for 90s television. In any case, I am done with that now and we'll soon return to your semi-regularly scheduled B5-watching; in the meantime, the net result of my Highlander rewatch is mumble nearly 10,000 words of fic notes, what is wrong with me and a bunch of screencaps.

The latter are here reposted for your edification.

This is not a Show Is Awesome post. Show is indeed occasionally awesome, but I am not looking for converts; I didn't even watch the whole thing. I think it's cute, and occasionally hilarious, and sometimes even quite good; I think the bits I watched are well worth watching if, like me, you have apparently a bullet-proof character kink for five-thousand-year-old snarky bastards who occasionally save the world because their dumbass boyfriends like to play hero.

In any case, it means that this is instead a Methos And His Frequent Swordporn Are Awesome post. It started out entirely as caps of Methos getting threatened with swords and making great faces about that, but then it got slightly out of control and comes with a Duncan/Methos agenda, which means stuff like painting houses together and slamming each other against Range Rovers. As you do.

So, when we first meet Methos, he's having an off day or something, because he decides it would be a great idea to offer MacLeod his head. Happily it results in this:

Maybe it's how he test-drives new boyfriends.

Anyway, then he regains his senses. And wears a cute sweater.

Maybe Duncan doesn't like the sweater?

Ladies and gentlemen, above I give you, hm, Exhibits A and B that Methos sort of likes being threatened with swords.

They take a short break from being kinky to do domestic instead.

Methos is not best pleased when Duncan mistakes his nose for part of the house.

Then Duncan gets a bit evil.

Also, other people sometimes threaten Methos with swords. I think Methos likes it better when Duncan does it.

Although he's a bit put out when he isn't expecting it and can't consent.

Sometimes even Joe gets in on the action, although he just sticks with guns. This is why Methos looks a bit bored.

I am fairly sure this next cap had to do with Duncan and Methos discussing matters of Deep Philosophical Import (and disagreeing about every salient point, because that's how they roll) but a still reveals that in fact when they argue morality they are trying very hard to keep from making out.

Swordporn. :D

But the sword is no substitute for Duncan! Pay attention, Duncan.

Methos is a bit fed up with Duncan not paying attention, and then his ex Kronos rolls into town. I am fond of the following cap because Methos has his "I'm being threatened with a sword! I'm definitely not turned on!" face, and Kronos doesn't even have a sword.

Which can be remedied.

Interlude for Methos and Duncan throwing each other against a car with BETRAYAL!! (I'm not gonna lie, Comes a Horseman/Revelation 6:8 is up there for me with Mountie on the Bounty. I am sensing a pattern even though there is a bit of a difference between OLD SHIPS and THE APOCALYPSE.) Anyway:

LOOK AT HIS CRAZY EYES.

The following cap cannot actually capture what I love about it, which is Methos sort of ... caressing the sword with his shoulder. The full awesome of that is best with context. (I. love. this. episode.)

Sometime later, apocalypse mostly averted, Methos feels the need to run around mostly naked with his sword. Thank you, Methos.

More swordporn.

But we haven't had someone put a blade to Methos' throat in four whole caps! Quick, Keane to the rescue!

Someone tell me this man does not enjoy being threatened with swords. Anyone?

Alas, that is the last of the swordporn. We do, however, have a cap for that time when Methos was friends with Lord Byron, and Byron, being a man of taste, comes on to Methos. Textually. Methos is about as surprised as I am:

But eventually he goes to hang out with MacLeod again. Maybe when Methos finishes ... cleaning whatever he's cleaning? ... they can go spar. If you know what I mean.

Thank you and goodnight.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

OH. MY. GOD. THAT EPISODE. No, I didn't have tears in my eyes, what are you talking about? Nope. Not me.

But THAT SCENE! Where Methos is telling Duncan alllll the details about what he did, and that he liked it, in what I interpret as an attempt to drive Duncan away (to save Duncan's life!) And then Duncan says they're finished, and Methos gets into his car and his head just sinks towards the steering wheel and OH METHOS.

BRB, watching next episode, will reply to the stuff in your comment at that point. NEED TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENS NEXT!

THEY ARE SOME OF MY FAVOURITE EPISODES ON THE PLANET. THAT SCENE.

I am very excited for your full thoughts on them. :DDD

I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN ABOUT HOW AWESOME THESE EPISODES ARE. alkdghdkls;askhgkd

OH METHOS I WANT TO GIVE YOU A HUG. ACTUALLY I WANT DUNCAN TO GIVE YOU A HUG.

Also, random thing, but I liked the little character touch in the insane asylum with Silas playing his flute. And it made the bit where Methos says brokenly, "I liked Silas" that much worse. OH METHOS.

I'm afraid I can't be more coherent than that over this episode! But basically it was awesome in every way.

I loved the way that there was, like, thematic continuity through the last four episodes. SO GREAT. It is a cheesy fantasy tv show with major themes about good and evil, and the show's conclusion is that THINGS ARE COMPLICATED! HOW MUCH DO I LOVE THIS! Seriously, SO MUCH LOVE. I think, upon reflection, that acknowledgements of the non-binary nature of morality is one of my favourite things ever in a show or a book. <33333

So yet again I'm sitting here going.... "startlingly good! Again!" I need to start expecting excellence on this show's part or something. Because it keeps on doing this!

You're right, Joe IS often the youngest person in the room! I don't know why that never clicked! Probably in part because Duncan is forever going to him to ask for advice/help, so despite his (relatively speaking) young age he keeps getting put into the role of Wise Old Mentor.

I also managed to not clue in that Amanda's that much older than Methos -- I mean, I knew it intellectually but never put it together. It makes their relationship dynamics even more interesting!

Methos the stalkerface! Yes, very plausible. Extremely plausible, in fact. Oh Methos you adorable ridiculous person you.

Oh, gosh, yes, if Methos and Duncan were ever the last two left Methos would TOTALLY pull that sacrificial act again. Methos' enlightened self-interest, meet Methos' lack of self-esteem when it comes to comparing himself with Duncan. Duncan wouldn't do it though, of course, but it would be HILARIOUS to see Methos try. (And by hilarious I actually mean also rather touching and adorable on top of the hilarious. I think I am never going to stop finding Methos adorable.)

I very much like your comparison with Fraser! I think it's a really accurate analysis of the different ways in which they expect the best of people. And oh Methos, forever trying to get Duncan's approval! And Methos would never ever ask, so he's stuck just doing what he's doing and never getting the acknowledgement he needs.

Now that you mention it, I had actually noticed the unflattering slacks! Methinks Amanda needs to take him out shopping instead of us!

And now for random other stuff that's not episode-related but that I've been thinking about:

One: what happens when a pre-immortal gets their first death while they're still a baby? The parents of said baby would be really confused when it never got any older. I wonder, actually, if something like that is what caused the legend of changelings to start. But if something like that happened in the modern day? I don't even know what would happen. (at any rate, I'd guess that the immortal baby would be beheaded pretty early in its life!)

Two: When an immortal gets an injury that would kill a normal human, what exactly happens? Do they die, and then come back to life? Does the wound (or the poison, or whatever) heal fast enough that death never actually arrives? And how long does this process take, of becoming hale again? Obviously getting shot with a bullet slows an immortal down some -- knocks them down onto the ground, in fact. But how much time does that actually buy you? And why don't more of the 'evil' immortals make more use of that -- shoot first, and then come up and cut the head off while the other person is helpless?

Three: is it really only head-cut-off that causes death for immortals? What if they were burned to a crisp with no skin or muscles or internal organs or even bones left, and then the ashes scattered widely? What if they were exploded into a million pieces with a really big bomb? What if they were crushed flat by a hundred thousand pounds of steel?

Four: I've watched enough episodes by now to have something of a handle on Methos' character. Enough anyways to look at how he'd fit onto my chart of Character Traits I Love. And it looks like he'd join the Doctor, Kowalski, Fraser, Sheppard and McKay in fulfilling all seven of the traits. In other words, he's fast becoming one of my FAVOURITE CHARACTERS EVER as well....

DFSKLDFSKJ I KNOW :DDDD

I think one of the brilliant things about the episode is that you kind of like Silas too! I mean, yes, he thinks that Killing People Is Good Fun, but he thinks it in a really ... non-malicious way? And he wants a monkey!

I'm fairly sure that the emotional continuity even continues into the next episode, but after that the Methos bits become much more scattershot again, so if there is emotional continuity going on, you might not see it. (Plus the series was drawing to a close, and they were experimenting with new formats, or ... something, I am unclear on this. Anyway, you are a good deal of your way through the Really Good Bits.)

I agree, though. Duncan REALLY needs to give Methos a hug. Also, I wish that Duncan would give Methos some genuine spoken-aloud approval, but he's completely rubbish at that. Of course Methos would be all prickly and pretend to not want to hear it, but that doesn't mean that Duncan shouldn't say something.

I think the age differences are REALLY FUN, because really it's Methos is older than Amanda is older than Duncan is older than Joe, whereas anyone casually observing them might ... put it in exactly reverse order, maybe? It's great.

Amanda definitely needs to take Duncan shopping. When the best part of your wardrobe is your awesome silver hair-clip, drastic measures must be taken.

Re: the other random stuff:

One: unless a really awful violent death happened to the baby, I don't think a baby would be made Immortal? It'd just be a really healthy baby. But who knows! I do know from my vague wandering through episode summaries, though, that there was once a kid whose first death happened when he was twelve; he managed to stay alive a long time by being unobtrusive, but he became a jaded old man in a child's body. Just ... eugh. Keep pre-Immortal children away from dangerous things!

Two: I am pretty sure that being shot/stabbed/etc will kill an Immortal, albeit briefly. (That's how Kronos managed to get Methos to his evil lair without much fuss, for instance; he said hello by stabbing him in the chest.) And ... maybe even evil Immortals abide by the rules of the Game, at least to a certain degree? I wondered it myself, actually. (I mean, you'll discover next episode that Methos keeps a second small sword handy for any literal or metaphorical backstabbing he might need to do, so what's to stop someone further down the moral greyscale from having a gun? SO MANY QUESTIONS.)

Three: you'd think some Immortals might get burned at the stake and stay dead, yeah. I think anything that severs your head from your body would do, so absolutely a bad-enough-explosion bomb would do it. I'm also under the impression that some wounds they get are too bad to properly heal -- Kalas' vocal chords, for instance. I imagine that Immortals with decapitated limbs wouldn't regrow them either.

Four: OH YES I KNOW. I don't know whether he had me at Alexa, but he definitely had me after the two-parter. :D

Hokay, have seen the next episode now! And oh gosh, I love it SO MUCH that Methos SHOT DUNCAN IN THE BACK in order to duel on his behalf. Methos is a sneaky two-timing bastard, but a sneaky two-timing bastard in order to help his friend! *happy sigh*

And then when the police cars showed up? I actually laughed out loud -- going by Methos' actions in Methos, I knew he had no compunction about calling the police on a duel, and so I thought it was Methos continuing his tricksy ways. And when it turned out it was Amanda instead? THAT WAS TOTALLY OKAY WITH ME TOO. GO AMANDA.

I love the whole "Methos and Amanda team up on Duncan to make him see sense" thing that this episode has going on. It is so great. (and I am beginning to see where the Duncan/Amanda/Methos shippers are coming from!)

AND this episode continues the themes of moral grey areas, which makes me super happy. And! The bit at the end, where Duncan says, "He's not that different; none of us are. We all make mistakes." And Methos responds, "And we all have mistakes to forgive." Methos is more or less pointing out what that vid "Unbelieivable" is, that Duncan doesn't have the moral high ground to have judged Methos so hard in Comes a Horseman/Revelation 6:8. \o/

he thinks that Killing People Is Good Fun, but he thinks it in a really ... non-malicious way?

I know what you mean! Caspian is insane, and Kronos is twisted, but Silas (if it weren't for the fact that he doesn't see anything wrong with killing other people) seems like a good guy!

Of course Methos would be all prickly and pretend to not want to hear it, but that doesn't mean that Duncan shouldn't say something.

SO MUCH YES.

One: Yeah, I was thinking about what would happen if a baby pre-immortal died a violent death. I mean, it DOES happen occasionally. Although -- now I'm wondering. What constitutes a violent-enough death to trigger the immortality thing? Does it have to be someone killing you on purpose, or does being accidentally dropped on your head (or something like that) count?

Two: okay, so it's not a...healing coma they go into when deathly injured but an actual death? Good to know. (Methos and his backstabbing! I love it.) I wonder what would make the evil immortals abide by the rules, though! If there's nothing enforcing them (which there doesn't seem to be) then it is an honour thing, and we've definitely seen immortals with little enough honour that I wouldn't think they'd have any compunctions about using a gun to make a fight easier. I am just so curious now!

Three: Yeah, I'd noticed Kronos' face-scar as well, and wondered. (for some reason I didn't think to wonder about Kalas' vocal chords!) In that case, I'd expect to see a lot more scarred immortals wandering around, then. I mean, considering the length of time they live, and how much violence their lives seem to hold, I should think that they would receive terrible-but-not-deadly wounds often enough that we'd have met more than just two scarred immortals by this point!

Four: Oh, he had me at the Alexa thing already. I was sold. I was just...irretreivably so, I guess, after the two-parter!

I LOVE IT WHEN METHOS SHOOTS DUNCAN IN THE BACK. :D I also love that, while things have obviously been either intensely awkward or they've been avoiding each other entirely since Bordeaux, Methos will still get in fights to the death to protect Duncan. Methos is basically a lost cause. <333

I am also really down with Duncan/Amanda/Methos, let me tell you! (Actually, I ship them very much the same way I ship Fraser/Vecchio/Kowalski, hilariously enough. One of them is Morally Upright and Does the Right Thing! The other two love him enough that they try to do the right thing too, but they flounder a bit and have to turn to each other because Fraser or Duncan is sometimes basically inexplicable to them! I am very fond of this dynamic, apparently.)

Yes for the moral gray areas! Also, I love how that was basically Duncan and Methos talking it out without talking it out at all, but probably being a bit more comfortable around each other again by the end. Next episode continues the morally gray party, and in such a big way that I don't even know what the answer is, which is pretty awesome.

Caspian is insane, and Kronos is twisted, but Silas (if it weren't for the fact that he doesn't see anything wrong with killing other people) seems like a good guy!

Exactly! Actually, the way I think of the Horsemen is something like this: Silas and Methos basically are brothers; Silas is the dumb young musclebound one who hero worships his brainiac older brother. Meanwhile, Kronos is Methos' way-cool no-good boyfriend, and Caspian is Kronos' mad lapdog. More or less. (...no, part of the big ridiculous fic I'm trying to write doesn't have Horsemen flashbacks, why do you ask?)

One: God, I don't ... I don't even know. Contemplating Immortal babies is absolutely horrific.

Two: Yep, actual death! Also, I don't know why evil Immortals wouldn't carry guns or something, seriously. You've probably noticed that Watchers frequently don't hesitate to kill Immortals temporarily in order to contain them and kill them for real. On the other hand, maybe that's the answer? Like, maybe ... obviously, Quickenings don't work if your opponent is temporarily dead, though why you couldn't just disable them with a gun and then go for it, I still don't know. Maybe Quickenings still don't work right if you cheat too much? *handwaves* I mean, Kalas was willing to take Methos' head in order to get an edge on Duncan, but he wasn't willing to just shoot him in the knee, and I'd like there to be some reason for that besides plot. Oh well.

Three: You'd think that Methos would have some scars, at least. I think it's just one of those things they never really worked out the rules for. (This bothers me a lot, actually! I read an incredibly good fic last week where, among other many plotty things, Methos gets tortured in ancient backstory. And I was sitting there going "BUT HOW WOULD THAT NOT HAVE LEFT SOME KIND OF MARK??" Especially since it then turned out that the Immortal villain of the piece was severely crippled. ARGH THE RULES OF THIS UNIVERSE.)

Four: Well, I think he actually had me at that half-smile of acknowledgment when Duncan first says his name, but that sounds absurd. :D

Mm, now that was a fascinating episode. You're right about it being a continuation of the morally gray funtimes, and... yeah. Fascinating. Well, Byron himself was a fascinating person.

I am fascinated by the group dynamics of the people in the flashback: Byron and Methos and Mary and Percy and the other random ladies. Methos seems to stick fairly thoroughly to more conventional morals, and Byron seems to have no patience for such conventions, so it is impressive to me that they are as close as they are. Also: Byron suggested to Methos a threesome with the two of them and Mary. And it appears to me that if Mary hadn't been half-unconscious, but had instead been willing, Methos might even have taken Byron up on it! This is another of those times when I'm like, wow, show, you went there? Applause!

I'm also intrigued by how highly Methos apparently values art: the poems that Byron has written, and the music that he has made and will make (...would have made). But on the other hand, Byron is Methos' friend, and we have seen many times the things Methos is willing to do for people he cares about! So that makes me wonder whether the valuing of art is just something he's saying to try to convince Duncan, as opposed to actually believing it. (I watched a commentary on Youtube that Peter Wingfield had done, for the episode Methos, and he talked about how he's not exactly sure you can ever believe Methos is in earnest about the things he says and does.) But I do like the idea of a Methos who's passionate about art!

Although .. it is clear that no matter how much he cares about Byron (whether as a friend or as an artist), Duncan is infinitely more important. Because when his argument fails, he just lets Duncan go fight Byron, instead of doing something tricksy to make things work out so that everyone lives.

The Mary Shelley of this episode also fascinates me! Although I can't help but feel like this version of events is somehow...insulting Mary's powers of imagination. The implication is quite strong that Mary could not have written Frankenstein without being handed her topic on a platter, as it were.

Also, now I kind of want to see this comic (http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=56) with added Methos. :D

I believe I've mentioned before my awful facial recognition skills. Well, having a character besides Duncan in this episode who had long curly brown hair was a problem. I kept on mistaking Mike for Duncan, in the scenes where Mike had his hair out of his hat. *facepalm*

Methos is basically a lost cause. <333

Yeah, he so is! It is a constant cause of amusement and adoration in me towards him.

I think I actually also ship Duncan/Methos/Amanda in the same way that I ship Fraser/Vecchio/Kowalski. Except it's a very different way from how you ship them... It's basically a situation where I OTP two out of the three people, but then that's being mean to the third person, so I include said third person to make them happy as well. But if the third person can be made happy in some other way instead, then that's good too.

And the canonical Duncan/Amanda relationship is rather interesting anyways. I mean, Amanda feels free to go off with a guy from a club to go have sex with him (even if it ends up actually ending in swords). And Amanda refers to Duncan as her best friend, not her boyfriend. It seems to me that it's actually more of a friends-with-benefits situation than a relationship. Which makes me feel one of two things: one, she'd be totally open to including Methos in the relationship, because it means awesome sex and making Duncan happy and having a sensible person to back her up against Duncan's sometimes ridiculous sense of honour; or two, she wouldn't be left bereft if Duncan and Methos got together, because she'd continue to be close friends with Duncan anyways, and be perfectly happy getting her sex elsewhere.

ANYWAYS. I've possibly been thinking too much about relationship permutations. *cough*

Your description of the roles of the Horsemen is very much YES. So I am VERY HAPPY to hear that there will be flashbacks to them in your fic! \o/

Two: I'd like there to be some reason for that besides plot.

Me too. Very much so. I am working on trying to come up with a theory that actually makes sense of the canon, but...thus far I am not succeeding in coming up with anything reasonable. *sigh*

Three: I know! Methos is FIVE THOUSAND YEARS OLD. That is a LONG time in which to acquire scars! It always makes me sad when creators of a TV show don't think about creating sensible rules for things. And I think this one will be even harder to handwave a reason for than the stuff from point two. *another sigh*

Four: Well, technically speaking, he had me from before I even started watching the first episode, because of your squee and picspam. :D So it doesn't sound at all absurd to me for you to have been caught from that awesome little smile!

Three: And now after this episode I'm wondering, what sort of long-term effects you'd get from drug-use as an immortal. Is the harm it causes you considered minor enough that it heals up? Or are you left with a messed-up brain, for the rest of your extremely long life?

Well, that was interesting. And by "interesting" I mean "really weird".

I kinda figured that the only non-mortal type beings in the world were the Immortals. But apparently this demon type thing exists as well! So now I'm wondering just what all else exists in the Highlander universe as well, that we just haven't run across yet.

Also, THEY KILLED RICHIE. I mean, Richie was young and impetuous and kind of annoying sometimes, but he was well-meaning and nice and meant a lot to Duncan and Joe, and now he's dead. Of a weird creepy world-destroying demon type thing.

But by the end of the episode, neither Joe nor Methos had yet seen a single thing to demonstrate that MacLeod ISN'T just going mad, so hopefully they do something about that in the next chronological episode, which I'm not watching because it doesn't have Methos in it. But why DOESN'T it have Methos in it? That was the first of a three-parter, and Methos was definitely worried about Duncan. He wouldn't just randomly abandon Duncan when Duncan has to face this world-destroying demon! That's not Methos' style! GAH.

Going back first to things re: the Byron episode:

Methos seems to stick fairly thoroughly to more conventional morals, and Byron seems to have no patience for such conventions, so it is impressive to me that they are as close as they are.

Aha! We come here to my Theory About Methos' Immortal Boyfriends (& Love Life In General). Basically, when Methos gets lonely and wants to have companionship, as you would if you lived for millennia, he does something in the realm of what we saw with Alexa. He'll find a mortal woman he connects with, and he'll build a life with her for as long as she's around to share it -- see his sixty-eight wives comment, although I suspect he was making up that figure in order to mess with Duncan. I still definitely believe he's been married, though, and also that he would totally never get involved with another Immortal that way because it's too much commitment!

Except that he hung out with Kronos for a long time. I think the Horsemen thing is the most major commitment he's ever made! And I suspect it's kind of a pattern -- he's deeply drawn to passionate Immortals with interesting personalities, firm convictions, &c. Kronos was the first, Byron definitely fits, and for most of the time we see him, Methos is doing some pretty crazy stuff to hang out with Duncan and keep him safe. He doesn't necessarily agree with either of them, but you don't see him easily walking away, either. Anyway! That's why it makes sense to me that Methos and Byron were close.

Re: Duncan being more important than Byron, I do think that's true, but I also think there's a bit more at work. Byron clearly wants to die. If Methos is trying to persuade Duncan to keep him alive, it's for pretty selfish reasons -- he doesn't want to lose a friend, possibly doesn't want to lose Byron's art (and I agree, I love the idea of Methos as someone who appreciates art; if you look at his various flats, they're full of weird artsy things, so either that's his Adam Pierson pose or he just likes collecting awesome things). I think he didn't stop Duncan because killing Byron may have been a questionable thing to do, but it was what Duncan and Byron both wanted.

I have really mixed feelings about Mary Shelley in that episode! On the one hand, I adore her relationship with Methos. On the other, yeah, it's deeply unfair to the scope of her imagination -- and, okay, the English major in me is rolling her eyes HARD at the idea that the social commentary in Frankenstein could be reduced to "it's secretly about Immortals!" Also, I dunno, I feel like Mary here was ... frail in a way that seemed wrong? Yes, she was devastated by her daughter's death, but ... urk, I dunno.

Re: canonical Duncan/Amanda, SO MUCH YES. They're clearly best buddies, and they clearly love each other so, so much, but what they have is clearly so much more friends-with-benefits than it is a romance. I don't think Duncan could ever really trust Amanda enough to be in love with her, and meanwhile Amanda, who is actually much better at acting out Methos' principles of survival than Methos is, probably just doesn't fall in love period. It's not one of her priorities! She loves Mac to death, but a romance would just be silly. So yeah, if Duncan/Methos happened, she might be interested in being in on the action, but if they didn't want that or it never came up, she'd be content to go on her merry way and just turn up to bug them occasionally. <333 AMANDA.

Three: I wonder if I could come up with a plausible explanation or a plot reason for Methos to not have scars. Hmm.

Re: drug use, the fanon at least states that, yeah, the effects would be temporary, and also probably wouldn't last as long for an Immortal. I think Byron being messed up was independent of the chemical whatever.

I don't know what to do with Archangel, honestly, or with season six. Like, killing Richie has MASSIVE REPERCUSSIONS, because Duncan raised this kid, and has been sort of wrestling with issues of morality lately anyway, and -- honestly it's amazing he didn't just do a Warren Cochrane-style shutdown when that happened. I think what happens is that after Methos refuses to take Duncan's head, Duncan flees for the hills and figures out a way to defeat the demon whatsit without endangering any of his other friends. But after that, I don't think Duncan and Methos see each other for quite a while, and when they do (in the series finale, no less! they have so little screentime together after the Richie thing, and it frustrates the hell out of me) they're just right back to their Duncan does something stupid, Methos rescues him pattern. I want resolution! In a way it's kind of a blessing, because it means I can take all these thematic things and wrestle them out in fic, but after all the excellent follow-through in season five, it's a bit argh-inducing.

Also, IDK what to do about there being real demons in this world. Just. WHAT.

Augh, I'd written most of a reply and then my computer was stupid and I lost what I'd written. *sigh* So if this isn't as wordy as I usually get, that's why....

So! The episode! I love the Joe And Methos Show! They play off each other so interestingly, and very different from the Duncan And Methos Show. It's great to see how Duncan's two best friends interact when he's not around.

And I seem to recall I had several at least somewhat intelligent things to say about the episode the first time I typed this comment up, but they've mostly fled my mind now. The one thing I remember is that I love the way Methos knew Joe was lying about the phone call, but said nothing about it until Joe confessed, and then Methos explained all the little tells that let him know. His ability to notice things, I think, is a large part of the reason why he's lived so long!

Theory About Methos' Immortal Boyfriends (& Love Life In General)

OMG I love this theory. It makes so much sense.

Actually, "Yes you are so right" is basically my reaction to everything you talk about in your comment. <3

Re: Methos' lack of scars, and an explanation thereof. If you could pull off a rational explanation I would love it SO MUCH. Because right now I'm not seeing my way towards one, no matter how hard I try.

although I suspect he was making up that figure in order to mess with Duncan.

I do wonder sometimes how much of the stuff he tells Duncan is lies in order to mess with him -- because messing with him is fun. Do you know if the flashbacks are supposed to be truthful representations of what happened in history? Because often they come up when one character is telling another character about something from their past, and the flaskback is there to be more exciting than listening to the speechifying. In which case it's possible the flashbacks are a visual representation of what the one character is telling the other, which means that stuff we see in flashbacks could be lies sometimes too. But it's quite possible I'm forgetting something obvious here that would make it clear which type of thing the flashbacks are supposed to be....

re: there being real demons in this world. I JUST realized that I think that's actually super-relevant to a fic I'm trying (and thus far failing) to write. Which means I think I need at some point to watch the rest of that three-parter....

Aw, I'm sorry it ate your reply!

I love that Methos knows Joe is lying and goes with him anyway. I mean, on the one hand it's a bit cruel of him to keep Joe in agonies like that, but I think Joe really is going to live with himself better for having confessed voluntarily -- and it's sort of amazing that Methos was absolutely willing to stay even though Joe was selling him out ... probably because he knows Joe really well at this point, and knew Joe wouldn't go through with it. So yeah, absolutely his ability to notice things, and to know people, is a large part of the reason he's stayed alive so long.

"Yes you are so right" is basically my reaction to everything you talk about in your comment. <3

YAY. :D As you can probably tell, I have spent way too much time coming up with many Theories of Methos.

Re: Methos' lack of scars, that ... sounds like a fic challenge, actually. I WILL TRY TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING.

I assume that Methos' stories are about sixty percent true to forty percent complete bullshit, but no one knows which is which and he isn't likely to tell you.

As to the truthfulness of the flashbacks, ooh, that's a good point! As far as I can recall, they are supposed to be accurate representations rather than stories -- not least because I don't know if they always involve actions that the characters would happily admit to -- but that's a good point. I think Through a Glass Darkly is the only time when we see two wildly different versions of the same event, the stuff with Bonnie Prince Charlie, but it's definitely a valid thing to think about and play with more generally.

Re: demons, I spent the first two parts of the three-parter muttering about how Evil Demons Omg completely invalidated all the excellent morally gray Methos stuff, but actually ... it doesn't! It's pretty cool, in a weirdass philosophy sort of way.

OH LOOK I'M FINALLY BACK HERE. Yes, I've seen the last two episodes now! Sorry for being such a flake and putting it off inexplicably like this....

(I got distracted by the fanfic. There's a lot of very excellent fanfic. And a lot of mediocre but somehow still engaging fanfic. I've been enjoying both very much.)

It was kind of weird coming back to watching the show after immersing myself in the fic for so long -- I've been really loving the fic, but watching these eps reminded me that yes, I love the show too, in a very different way. They fulfill different needs, and I shouldn't neglect the show for the fanfic's sake!

ANYWAYS. That was certainly an odd choice as to how to end a show. I suppose I can see the point: "look how important MacLeod's been over the course of the series!" But it's a weird type of closure.

And besides, I don't actually think MacLeod had THAT much incredible influence that SO MUCH would have been different without him. He was the one thing that stopped there from being this whole war between the Watchers and Immortals? Really?

Nonetheless, they were very interesting episodes! I squirmed in sympathy for the terrible fates of the characters SO MUCH over the course of them. Joe, a bitter beggar on the street! Amanda, heartless and after nothing but money! Tessa (who I'm now familiar with from listening to Sentientcitizen (http://sentientcitizen.livejournal.com/) talk about Season One) being all unfulfilled and passionless! Richie, trying to kill Joe! And then getting killed by Methos! Methos, being all brotherly with Kronos again! NOOOOOOO!

So yeah, it was certainly an emotionally effective pair of episodes...even if I was also finding myself giggling at ridiculousnesses, or trying to talk to the characters through my computer screen to make them be sensible.

Something I find fascinating, about the way Duncan reacts to the various things he sees in this alternate reality, though: He sees that Amanda has turned into a killer, and his response is to try to convince her she's a good person. He sees that Methos has turned (back) into a killer, and his response is to try to kill him. Apparently he still has some trust issues to work through as regards his instinctive reactions towards Methos....

I am very curious as to all of Methos' motivations and inner thoughts in this alternate reality. According to Fitz, without Duncan Methos just hadn't become enough of a different person. I would definitely agree that it's because of Duncan not being there that Methos acquiesced to joining the Horsemen again. And that it IS what Methos would have done if he'd never known Duncan (or someone like him). But...to a 5000 year old person, a couple years isn't enough to change who you really are. Methos doesn't become a different person over the course of knowing MacLeod; he's the same person, he just has more motivation to do what's "right" because he respects MacLeod's opinion so much. That's my working theory right now, anyways.

At any rate, it was pretty tragic to watch Methos be all adorably Methos-like, only doing really nasty things all adorably Methos-like.

And finally, wow, cheesy montage set to Bonny Portmore as the way to spend the last few minutes of the final episode? Interesting choice! I pretty much giggled my whole way through it. Although now every time I hear Bonny Portmore I shall be thoroughly reminded of Highlander. (according to Wikipedia the song's been used in four different eps of Highlander, PLUS the third movie. Weird! It's not a song I would have thought of as being Highlandery enough to warrant that much use!)

As you can probably tell, I have spent way too much time coming up with many Theories of Methos.

This is a very good thing! Your Theories of Methos are always interesting. And it's fascinating to try to dissect the guy and figure out how he works. Now that I've read a whole bunch of fanfic about him, it's fascinating to see the many different ways in which people interpret him! And I wouldn't even call a lot of these interpretations OOC -- they're fairly valid interpretations of the source material. (...well. Not all of them are valid.)

Re: Methos' lack of scars: YES YES YES. I look forward to hearing what you come up with!

It's pretty cool, in a weirdass philosophy sort of way.

Ooh, I kind of like weirdass philosophy. I'll have to get around to watching those episodes at some point! But it turns out the demons aren't relevant to my fic after all, so I don't need to watch them for that reason, so if I know myself at all it'll....probably be a while before I get around to them.

ALSO I FORGOT TO MENTION.

Duncan's hair. It is tragic! He looks all WRONG like that! Also, it means that when he's having a swordfight at the end with that other dude, I actually could not tell which character was which, because there was no ponytail to look for. It made it awkward in trying to follow the course of the fight....

Also, what was with the It's A Wonderful Life thing happening in these eps even being necessary? Duncan wasn't being suicidal. It was, as far as I can tell, a perfectly normal Duncan-like response to the situation: if the options are that either he dies or his friends do, of course he's going to go be stupidly heroic on their behalf. So the Life Lesson that Fitz was trying to teach Duncan seems a little unnecessary to me...

And then! Today I rewatched Comes A Horseman/Revelation 6:8. It was very interesting, rewatching it! I definitely noticed some different things than the first time around, when I was mostly busy just going METHOS *WIBBLE*.

Like, we keep on talking about how you can't really ever trust stuff Methos says to actually be true. But I forgot how in places in these eps, he does seem to be really truly telling the truth (so far as I can tell). Like, when he's reunited with Kronos, and Kronos is talking and threatening and carrying that big heavy chain, Methos is all, "don't you understand, I'm not like that anymore! I've changed!" And he's got this unsteadiness to his voice that makes him sound totally in earnest with everything he's saying in this conversation. And yet if he were the lying liar only out for his own skin, then the politic thing to do in this circumstance would certainly have been to say something else than what he was actually saying. Which makes me think that he was telling the truth here, which makes me think that perhaps he lies less than I was assuming? I don't know. HE'S COMPLICATED OKAY.

Also, it's interesting, Duncan is all 'we're through' when he hears what Methos has done, and later when the two of them talk in the church he's obviously quite upset with knowing the terrible things Methos has done. But despite being DEEPLY unhappy with what he now knows about Methos (enough to say he's through with Methos!)He goes haring off to Ukraine and Bordeaux basically expecting to find a message from Methos! In other words, he still does trust Methos despite everything. And that's despite he and cassandra agreeing at the end of Comes a Horseman that both Kronos and Methos need to be killed.

Also. Silas says at one point, "Like you always said, Methos. We live. We grow stronger. Then we fight." Somehow I missed the first time around that that's basically EXACTLY what Methos said to Duncan in the ep Methos. NICE.

(Also, I think I need to break myself of the habit of beginning new paragraphs with the word "also". :D)

YAY, YOU FINISHED. :D

I'm not really sure why they felt the need to end with 'It's a Wonderful Life' especially because, as you say, Duncan offering his head to save his friends isn't really new behavior. I think it really was just a case of the writers going, "Well, we're leaving, so here's a two-parter about how MacLeod is awesome!"

I don't actually think MacLeod had THAT much incredible influence that SO MUCH would have been different without him. He was the one thing that stopped there from being this whole war between the Watchers and Immortals? Really?

Arguably that is valid? The Watchers-vs-Immortals arc is from second season (which I have now in curiosity seen bits of) and, believe you me, Horton was perfectly capable of bringing about the kind of wholesale destruction that we see in the AU. Duncan just happened to be in the right place at the right time to nip his killing spree in the bud, so it's not so much a case of Duncan Is Specifically The Savior as it is that, without him, there wouldn't necessarily have been someone else there to do the job instead.

I think the same mostly goes for the fates of his friends. Joe is tied up with the Horton thing, so we've got that covered; Richie probably wouldn't have been kindly taken in by a different stranger, so that scans; whatever happened to Tessa happened more than a decade ago, so I'm not going to argue it; and I figure Amanda and Duncan's history is complex enough that, yeah, he might've made that kind of difference slowly over the centuries. About Methos, though ...

But...to a 5000 year old person, a couple years isn't enough to change who you really are. Methos doesn't become a different person over the course of knowing MacLeod; he's the same person, he just has more motivation to do what's "right" because he respects MacLeod's opinion so much.

I think you've basically nailed it. I thought the Watcher girl he was in love with was a nice touch; considering the lengths he went to in an attempt to save Alexa, I can buy him cracking a little if a woman he loved was shot in front of him -- and then of course Kronos turns up immediately and offers him an outlet for that pain. I think it is valid to assume that Methos-circa-meeting-Duncan is quite a bit tired; Duncan gave him a positive kind of reboot, and in the AU Kronos has basically the same function in a negative way. I have no idea how well I'm articulating that, though.

Let us take a moment to mourn Duncan's hair. :D

I love rewatching Comes a Horseman/Revelation 6:8, because I notice new things about it every time!

Re: Methos telling the truth -- he does lie less than you assume! Methos' modus operandi is less "Lie or otherwise obfuscate as often as possible!" and more "Hey, whatever works." The clearest example of this is in Finale, when Joe and Methos are visiting Christine Salzer and, in an effort to convince her not to go to press with info on Immortals, Methos, without any hesitation at all, reveals his Immortality to her. He cheerfully destroys his disguise of ten years, and it doesn't even work. When Joe asks him what the hell he was thinking, Methos just says, "I wasn't thinking, I was improvising." Joe is pretty bewildered that, in five thousand years, Methos hasn't come up with something better. But the thing is, it works, most of the time. Methos doesn't commit to any particular course of action; he just constantly adapts. Sometimes it means lying. And because he's so changeable, it's often difficult to see what he actually means or is after at any given moment.

But despite being DEEPLY unhappy with what he now knows about Methos (enough to say he's through with Methos!)He goes haring off to Ukraine and Bordeaux basically expecting to find a message from Methos! In other words, he still does trust Methos despite everything.

Oooh, that is a good point! I mean, I'm sure Duncan doesn't even realize the implied trust in his actions, but man. He never really gives up on Methos, even when he says he does. <3 That's one of the things I really love about this show, actually: what the characters say and what the characters do are often at odds. Most of Methos' and Duncan's interpersonal troubles come from the fact that they listen to what each other say rather than paying attention to what they each do.

Silas says at one point, "Like you always said, Methos. We live. We grow stronger. Then we fight."

YES. I love that! It makes every time he gently tells Duncan the same thing suddenly REALLY CREEPY. Methos: recycling wisdom to fit the occasion since 2000 BC!

And lastly, since you mentioned you have been distracted by the fic: got any good recs? I've found two long-and-plotty ones with Methos backstory that I ADORE, but I haven't found anything else similarly great, although there is some pretty entertaining stuff.

The Watchers-vs-Immortals arc is from second season (which I have now in curiosity seen bits of) and, believe you me, Horton was perfectly capable of bringing about the kind of wholesale destruction that we see in the AU.

Okay, fair enough. If it's referring back to stuff that I haven't seen, then I can't exactly comment on its plausibility! (although I must admit I'm still skeptical. Even if Horton is as horrible as you say, it doesn't make sense that an organization that has lasted THOUSANDS of years would topple because of one man. If that were possible, it would have happened long ago, I think.)

Methos, without any hesitation at all, reveals his Immortality to her. He cheerfully destroys his disguise of ten years, and it doesn't even work.

Good point! I had completely forgotten about that. You're right, his modus operandi DOES seem to be "whatever works". "Whatever works" in a very spur-of-the moment sort of way. Which actually makes it really interesting that he was the planner of the Horsemen: apparently he's really good at making advance plans, but just doesn't care to when it comes to how he lives his life?

what the characters say and what the characters do are often at odds.

Yes! It's so wonderful. The characters are unreliable narrators of their own lives. :D

Methos: recycling wisdom to fit the occasion since 2000 BC!

And probably earlier!

Recs! I am happy to do recs! Now let's see....time to dig through all the links and see which ones are worth reccing....

The Strange People You Meet In Heaven (http://archiveofourown.org/works/66804), by sage_theory. An interesting little SG1/HL crossover, to do with the lack-of-deadness that plagues both shows. (I don't know if you've seen any SG1, but I presume that since you know SGA you've got at least passing familiarity)

The Causes Remain (http://archiveofourown.org/works/57043) and its sequels Twilight Kingdoms (http://archiveofourown.org/works/57051) and Lingering Scars (http://archiveofourown.org/works/57058), by elynross and taselby. Methos and Duncan piecing their relationship back together after the Horsemen thing, with interesting stuff about Methos' past. Also, the last story in the series is exactly the sort of angst that I love best. Long.

68 Wives (http://archiveofourown.org/works/56268), by hmpf_macslow. A really lovely look at Methos' previous relationships. And the last line is perfect.

Of Sound Mind and Body... (http://archiveofourown.org/works/58329), by taselby. What does it take for an immortal to actually get sick?

Dominion (http://archiveofourown.org/works/21478), by lannamichaels. A really great look at Kronos, and how he views Methos.

Say..." (http://archiveofourown.org/works/19087), by taz. A fragment of writing, recently discovered, which a Watcher agent believes to be Methos'.

Magic Sword Pocket Guy (http://archiveofourown.org/works/18979), by severely_lupine. A Harry Potter crossover. In which a sensible explanation is put forward as to where immortals stash their swords so invisibly.

The Watcher Chronicles: 1.01: Pilot (The Methos And Joe Show) (http://archiveofourown.org/works/9330), by lannamichaels. An analysis of the pilot episode of the hit spinoff show about Methos and Joe. (Plus the script to the show, but I like the analysis part more.)

Cast A Cold Eye (http://archiveofourown.org/works/58307), by 3scoremiles10. Duncan and Methos dealing with the aftermath of the Horsemen thing.

Death Takes A Holiday (http://archiveofourown.org/works/21271), by idontlikegravy. You've read Discworld, yes? Okay, so Death is going to be away for the next 100 years, and Susan isn't available this time, so....he needs a replacement Death.

Hidden Lord (http://archiveofourown.org/works/9674), by lannamichaels. A crossover with Doctor Who (!!!). Doctor/Master, and also about Methos.

Yom Kippur (http://archiveofourown.org/works/2336), by teresa_c. Duncan and Methos deal with the aftermath of the Horsemen thing.

Metempsychosis (http://archiveofourown.org/works/803),by laura jv. In which we find out what would happen if someone who's not very powerful were to take Methos' quickening.

Resolution/Intervention (http://archiveofourown.org/works/634), by merry. Duncan and Methos deal with the aftermath of the Horsemen thing. Long.

Tresspasses (http://archiveofourown.org/works/10445), by lannamichaels. Joe/Methos from pre-series, in which Joe doesn't know Adam is Methos, but finds out he's immortal.

A May/December Affair (http://archiveofourown.org/works/45552), by helens78. Joe/Methos -- it's a more complicated May/December affair than most.

Moebius Man (http://archiveofourown.org/works/37248), by jedibuttercup. SG1 crossover, which plays on the way that Daniel keeps on dying in SG1 canon.

Sacrifice Unsung (http://archiveofourown.org/works/10988), by cplberen. Methos is dead, and Duncan would give anything for him to be alive again. And just giving his life would be too easy.

Waiting (http://archiveofourown.org/works/16295), by selena. Alexa, waiting, while Methos rushes to Duncan's help when Duncan gets the Dark Quickening.

Brothers and Other Strangers (http://mediafans.org/valentin/brothers.html), by valentin. Amnesiafic! In which Methos forgets he's anyone but Adam Pierson.

Save the Last Dance for Me (http://dayspring.skeeter63.org/dance.htm), by dayspring. Ah, that lovely harlequin cliche of two people pretending to be together when they're not.

A Square Peg in a Round Hole (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3571049/1/A_Square_Peg_in_a_Round_Hole), by marbleglove. an SG1 crossover, and if you read none of the other SG1 crossovers that I've linked, read this one. It is great. Jack O'Neill's de-aged clone's precalc teacher is Methos, and then it just gets more awesome from there. Long.

A Halloween Story By Methos (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1666221/1/Halloween_story_by_Methos), by marbleglove. Duncan et al are telling scary stories, and it's Methos' turn, and his story is a very creepy origin-of-the-immortals myth.

Tessellation (http://dayspring.skeeter63.org/tess.htm), by dayspring. Joe shows up in the middle of the night to tell Methos that Duncan is dead.

Not a happy ending (http://marbleglove.livejournal.com/15589.html), by marbleglove. Not actually a complete fic, just the synopsis of one marbleglove is never going to write, but even just that is excellent.

Sacred Trust (http://lanning.slashdom.net/stories/SacredTrust/STIndex.htm), by lanning cook. post-Horsemen and Byron. And then another sketchy figure from Methos' past appears! Also, a deeper look into who Darius was. Long.

The Carpathian Ridge (http://community.livejournal.com/hlh_shortcuts/9304.html), by corbeaun. One of the very few AUs I've discovered in this fandom! An AU version of the first time Methos and Duncan meet

Stonecutters (http://www.tenebris.org/mbb/taselby/stonecutters.html) and its sequel A Roof Against The Rain (can't link to it; follow the link on the lefthand side of the page of the first story), by taselby. Methos and Duncan's complicated relationship.

Perchance To Dream (http://www.tenebris.org/mbb/elynross/index.html). Unfortunately can't link directly to fic, so click on it in the index. By elynross. Post-series. Methos and Duncan, talking. About a lot of stuff. What it means to be Immortal, the Game, the Horsemen stuff, their relationship... it's lovely.

Beautiful Friendship (http://www.tenebris.org/mbb/elynross/index.html), by elynross, and again the link leads to the index. Duncan has a date, Methos shows up on the wrong night for their movie-watching plans, and the date gets pretty fed up with watching them flirt.

Uh, yeah. It's possible I've gone overboard here in my reccing.... Enjoy?

BTW, what are the two long-and-plotty fics you've found and adored? If I haven't read them yet, then I definitely want to!

Even if Horton is as horrible as you say, it doesn't make sense that an organization that has lasted THOUSANDS of years would topple because of one man. If that were possible, it would have happened long ago, I think.

That ... bothers me about the arc, actually. Nearly every time we see Watchers who aren't Joe they're pretty awful people, so I have to wonder why they aren't awful more often. (But it's sort of the same problem as the one where, if you do the basic math, about a fourth of Duncan's total Immortal kills happen in a six-year span out of roughly four hundred. It's basically the problem of an interesting TV show -- if the lives these guys lead were this action-packed all the time, they'd probably go nuts in the long run. *shrug*)

apparently he's really good at making advance plans, but just doesn't care to when it comes to how he lives his life?

I think Methos is full of clever ideas at all times, but the real reason that Kronos prizes his tactical mind is that Methos is basically the ultimate champion of adaptive behavior. This strategy didn't work? No problem, we're instantly on to the next one -- and he has ten more to spare! Living that way would keep you alive for a really damn long time, especially if you were careful not to form too many attachments, or at least being willing to give them up.

Holy crap, that is a lot of links. I am going to be basking in them for a LONG TIME. <3

One of the two I was thinking of was Sacred Trust, which I see you linked -- I love that one to tiny pieces. The other is by Sleeps With Coyotes, who is no longer on the internet, but a friend gave me a whole folder of her stuff, so if you want me to send it to you, I can. (The specific long-and-awesome story in question is Still-Heart, but a lot of them are quite good.)

It's basically the problem of an interesting TV show -- if the lives these guys lead were this action-packed all the time, they'd probably go nuts in the long run.

Haha, true. Similar arguments could probably be made about a LOT of tv shows, and the watcher must simply suspend disbelief. Unfortunately.

This strategy didn't work? No problem, we're instantly on to the next one -- and he has ten more to spare!

Yeah, I think you're right. We even see this in the Revelation 6:8. The bomb-in-fountain fails, Kronos remonstrates him, and Methos is just like, "meh, I'll come up with another plan, no worries."

that is a lot of links.

I...tend to go a bit overboard in my archive-binges, yes. *grin*

but a friend gave me a whole folder of her stuff, so if you want me to send it to you, I can.

Oh, please do! That would be excellent. My email address is in my lj profile.

I was going back to reread her Aziraphale/Crowley fic, Form and Function and just realized this. Does your folder happen to include Hush?

I would greatly appreciate it if you could forward it to me at animeartistjo@yahoo.com

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