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the ultimate ginger

It's probably just because my life is a bit mad right now, or because last week's episode is only really now settling in, but wow, this one made me cry a lot.

I can't actually decide if this one was any good. I mean, I think it could've been miles better, just in terms of the fact that you've got mad impossible Amy Pond, and the madman with a box, and Van Gogh, all hanging out in the same episode, and there are lengths they could have gone to that they just didn't -- but on the other hand, I'm quite glad that it wasn't all fancrushing on the historical celeb of the week; instead it was lying on the ground, all holding hands and transforming the sky into Starry Night, which was the first time I teared up. So I think really the only thing I'm disappointed about is the monster of the episode. Invisible-except-to-Van-Gogh thing is awesome in concept, but it didn't quite carry out.

It was made up for by basically everything else. I loved the Doctor's "Is this how time normally passes? Really slowly ... in the right order ..." because, um, yes. The Doctor is incredibly Doctory in this one, both for the silly bits -- the godmother with two heads; okay, now we know the Doctor is embarrassing childhood friends with Zaphod Beeblebrox -- and also for the serious bits: Every life is a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don't always soften the bad things, but vice versa, the bad things don't necessarily spoil the good things, or make them unimportant. And I love that Eleven said that, because you wouldn't catch Ten being capable of knowing such a thing, but Eleven is able to articulate it. <3

Mostly, though, I think I liked this episode because, as much as I would've wished for a unicorn chaser after Cold Blood, I needed to see the Doctor being extra kind to Amy, and I needed to see Van Gogh looking through all the worlds into the one where Amy is still sobbing because Rory's gone. I needed that, and I think that's why I spent the last ten or so minutes of the episode crying, and it really worked for me.

I am utterly unenthused about next week. Is it Doctor lite next week? Probably.

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What is happening next week on Doctor Who?

And this episode sounds lovely.

Apparently the Doctor ... moves into a flat with some random humans? I was confused by the 'next time' preview, so I looked it up on wiki, and apparently it's a story that's adapted from a comic about Ten and Rose. I will try to contain my enthusiasm. [/sarcasm]

This episode was kind of amazing, especially if you're watching it for character rather than plot.

The next one has Smithy in it! Other than that I'm not quite clear on what's going on.

I really liked most things about the episode (monster aside), and it did make me tear up (especially the Rory bits), but it also made me furious. I am just -- unicorn chaser or not, I feel like you can't just ignore the incredibly negative consequences of showing Vincent fucking Van Gogh his future fame and all the wonders of the universe and then taking them away again and dropping him off at home where nobody values him or thinks he's worth anything. IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT. Taking him into the future doesn't help him, you fuckers, and it might even be what ultimately drives him to suicide. That's how I started reading it as soon as they showed him the TARDIS. (I was yelling "NO DON'T DO IT" at the screen.) I don't know, I mean, I really liked the line about the good things and the bad things, but I feel like -- that's exactly how the Doctor plays with time, and wow does it suck for the people who get caught up in his wake and then lost or left behind.

I guess what I'm saying is that the apparent message of the episode made me really uncomfortable, because everything screamed "DON'T GO IN THE BLUE BOX" to me, and then they were all acting like it was fluffy bunnies.

i agree with this comment. a lot.

...Wow, I didn't think of it that way at all. I'm fairly sure the people working on the story didn't either, because I think the message was supposed to be that Van Gogh commits suicide despite rather than because of the things the Doctor and Amy show him, but -- given that scene where he's actually lying in bed sobbing because they're going to leave him, you're definitely onto something. And ouch. Now the episode is four times as difficult and I want to shake Eleven REALLY HARD.

Oh, I totally don't think they were thinking of it that way at all, and a lot of people have made very reasonable and meaningful observations about how well Van Gogh's depression was treated in the episode -- that it can't be fixed, that it's not so easy. I like that Amy had to cope with that reality. But the lesson still made me uncomfortable, because it felt like they were...I don't know, not really thinking about the whole picture. The one depressive episode we saw Van Gogh have was about them leaving him; they can't suddenly, miraculously make him better, but that doesn't mean they don't change him. Taken in context with everything the Doctor has ever done to his companions...stepping into the TARDIS changes you, no matter how short a time you're there, and showing someone their future does have consequences. The Doctor should know better.

I certainly don't think this is the only way to read the episode, and I'm certain it isn't what they intended, but I'm still...very discomforted.

I ... actually really strongly disagree with this. I felt that the takeaway (or part of it) was that, yeah, you can do really awesome things, and be depressed, and know that you're really awesome, and it won't make the depression better. And depression kills people. So I don't think that taking VVG to the future killed him faster, and it may even have delayed it.

I certainly think that's the message the writers intended. A lot of people have said good, smart, reasonable, right things about how well Van Gogh's depression was treated in the episode, and for the most part I agree with them. Seeing Amy face the reality that she can't just fix him by showing him how much he's loved in the future is really powerful. Depression is depression.

But we have also seen, time and time again, that stepping into the TARDIS changes you, often irrevocably. Showing people futures they have no right to see -- that fucks with people, it fucks with the space-time continuum, and it's not a solution. I'm not saying it killed him; the depression killed him. But I am deeply discomforted by the fact that the Doctor doesn't once seem to stop and think about what taking Van Gogh into the future might do.

Its all in your POV, I suppose. The knowledge that you've done something grand and people are going to remember you, that's pretty powerful, you know? More powerful for some than getting hassled in the streets, I think, but not for everyone.

Yeah, I think that's true. It's just that the only actual depressive episode we saw Van Gogh have in the episode was about them leaving him. Obviously depression is depression, but -- I don't know. I think for Van Gogh, getting left behind again, after seeing something he doesn't get to have in his lifetime, might be incredibly destructive. Inspiring, sure, but -- destructive.

Maybe I'm just drunk - and I apologize for any typos - but I thought it was SO GOOD. Art! This was an episode of a TV show about how AWESOME ART IS and it sort of showed you how to look at art and appreciate it and how glorious the world is when you really *look*. I thought it was just amazing. The thing about the sunflowers being sort of alive but not really - wow, did they come up with that? I'll never look at sunflowers the same way again.

Did you notice how beautiful the costuming and the set were when they went to the church? Everything was brown with red and navy accents, and a brief jarring accent from the sunflowers, and then there were more and more accents until it got dark and everything went blue from the sky and red from the blood and then the ecstasy of the starry night asdkjhakgs.

And at the same time it was sad - the dead alien reminded me of the scared and confused birds covered in oil from the spill - and I think what oliviacirce says about Vincent's suicide is right on. I was so scared of what would happen to him and then all my dread panned out... Well. The ending - I totally agree they should not have taken him to the future - but I'm not sure I could have stood there and gone head to head with the Doctor trying to convince him it was the wrong thing to do. And the sunflower dedication took the edge of an episode that went from hilarity to pathos like it was nothing.

This comment is so totally going to be my LJ post, plus screencaps.

I think any of my hesitance was about the quality of the plot, because wow, the character stuff was EXCELLENT. And now I want to watch it again, because of what you said about the colors! The culmination with the starry night scene was absolutely incredible.

I didn't think of the suicide that way when I watched it, because I'm fairly sure we were supposed to read the suicide as despite rather than because of the Doctor showing him wonderful things, but on second thought, yeah, that is right on, and also completely heartbreaking.

And the sunflower dedication took the edge of an episode that went from hilarity to pathos like it was nothing.

YES THIS. That was so frustrating. I was sitting there yelling, "GUYS. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU DID THERE?"

That episode totally was beautiful, though.

Well, I didn't really mind it. I needed a unicorn chaser too.

i didn't realize until tonight how much of my life i spent just wanting to see van gogh smile.

also i agree with everything you said in this post, especially the last paragraph, though for me this totally was a unicorn chaser, maybe minus a few sparkles. it's totally a new favorite though. also piles of good things!

omfg there is just so much i want to squee about, and i don't have the brain for to do that in a comment! but basically HOLY CRAP THIS EPISODE IS MY NEW FAVORITE THING EVER AND I AM GOING TO WATCH IT A LOT OF TIMES. AND PROBABLY CRY THROUGH ALL OF THEM. ♥_♥

Maybe it is a unicorn chaser after all! It's just a unicorn chaser that made me cry a lot. XD

YOU ARE MAKING ME WANT TO WATCH IT AGAIN LOTS.

MY WORK HERE IS DONE.

I can't even concentrate on how good the episode itself was because it took my #1 emotional fantasy and painted it right up there on my teeny little computer monitor. (In my fantasy, it's John Keats, though.) At some point I'll be able to have some thoughts on the rest of the episode but right now I'm just in a haze of catharsis.

Ok, that's not entirely true, I can spare one thought for HOW AWESOME WERE AMY'S BOOTS.

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the ultimate ginger

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