aria: ([highlander] swordporn)
valinor spider party ([personal profile] aria) wrote2010-07-22 12:10 pm

fannish navel-gazing

It is thunderstorming today! Quite reasonably, my desktop weather widget had a picture of lightning. I still stared at it in puzzlement for a good ten seconds, thinking, "It's ... cloudy with a chance of Quickenings?" /o\

And then, sitting down to work on my Highlander fic, I was quietly plot-outlining in my head when I was brought up short by sudden guilt. And it wasn't obligation guilt: I know enough about my writing process that I can prioritize a due South AU and a Babylon 5 rewatch and an Avatar season and &c &c as much as I want, but if I sit down and a Doctor Who fic comes out instead, that's what I'm damn well writing. So trying to write Highlander fic wasn't making me think, "Why am I doing this when I should be doing x instead?" but rather "Why am I writing Highlander fic at all?" and this brought me up short: I was feeling self-indulgent, and that apparently made me feel guilty. Uh, what? Fic-writing is for funsies and not profit, after all; it is by definition wonderfully self-indulgent. Apparently, the problem is that it's Highlander.

And that's interesting, because -- okay, with Highlander, the premise is ridiculous, the acting is uneven, and I wouldn't bother actively recommending it to anyone because there are probably better things you can spend your time watching. But the degree I've been apologetic about liking it, even in my own head, borders on the absurd. I am not apologetic about my other 90s shows, and there is nothing inherently more ridiculous about "Four-hundred-year-old man runs around saving the day with a sword and occasionally beheading people" than there is in "Mountie goes to Chicago, befriends a cop, and has deep, meaningful discussions with his deaf half-wolf and dead father" nor indeed in "Lord of the Rings ... IN SPACE!" (Also, I am fairly sure that Adrian Paul could run acting circles around Michael O'Hare, which is a slightly alarming thought.) I mean, for god's sake, I am unapologetic about liking Seven's run on Doctor Who, Fifi and cheetah!Master and everything. I am happily shameless! So what the hell am I doing going mumblety highlander yeah whatever?

But I think I have an answer, in two parts. Part the first is about the fandom itself, and that is: I have no idea what the fandom is! I have been spoiled rotten by the due South fandom; because it is still alive and active, I know what the discourse is. It also remembers its history. I know who was running what when, I know where the fic archives are, I know what discussions we're having, and I know I like it. Babylon 5 fandom isn't quite so giving, if only because it seems to be a meta-based fandom for the most part, but there's still an active rewatch, it's very easy to track down all the old meta, and the ficcers are apparently the sort of people who happily embrace the AO3 -- so, again, I know the discourse (or at least can pick and choose it, because I'm fannishly more interested in Centauri-Narn relations than Human-Minbari ones, if you know what I mean). But with Highlander ... man, I don't even know. I've found the fic! That was easy. I've found the vids! That was surprisingly easy too. But maybe the fossilized record of the active discourse is hiding away on lists, or defunct message boards, or in the far depths of people's LJs from the early 2000s, back in the Land Of No Tags, or somewhere I cannot even imagine.

The point is that, since I can't find it, I don't know what the show is even about, in a fannish context, except those bits I can glean from fic. With due South, I know it is absurd, I am allowed to think it is absurd, I'm allowed to feel a bit squodgy about the way the show treats Francesca and the women at large, and I am allowed to love the whole thing unconditionally anyway. With Babylon 5, I am allowed to hide from the first season acting and the fifth season plot, I am allowed to roll my eyes as much as necessary at JMS' occasional complete overwroughtness, and I am allowed to fall to my knees in worship of the storytelling and sob my eyes out whenever I feel like it, although especially at the end. With Highlander, I gather that I am allowed to shake my tiny fists of rage at sixth season and ignore as many movies as I like, but ... am I supposed to like Duncan at all? Am I allowed to yell along with the theme song and roll around on the floor laughing like a hyena whenever there's a Quickening? How irreverent am I supposed to be, and is it a party faux pas to get tipsy and start rambling about how a modern AU where the Four Horsemen are the dorkiest most dysfunctional gang ever would be great?

And I ask all this not because I need a given fandom's permission to read a show a certain way, but because I like not working in a vacuum. And because I am, my brain can't decide whether it's supposed to apologize for this show or if we've got it covered, it's taken as written that it's rubbish, and we're ready to move on now and just throw a good party. So that's the first thing.

The second thing is probably related to the first, but is way less complicated. And it is: id show. Oh my god Highlander is my stupid id show. I have a crazy immortals kink about a galaxy wide, and to my surprise, the show actually considers a lot of the stuff I want considered when it's stories about crazy immortals. How does someone keep functioning when everyone around them dies? How does a person manage to change with the times when the times insist on becoming so different? What about what happens when a person reaches immortality when they're too young, and end up stuck that way? How do they keep the ordinary people around them from noticing that they never age, and what do they do if the ordinary people do notice? But of course none of this is addressed in a subtly-written, well-acted, beautifully-shot way. It's done in a way where you blink and end up missing it because of all the ridiculous pyrotechnics.

So, okay, you sexualize said pyrotechnics as much as possible, add in some accidental mind-melding, lots of dark backstory, and some nosy, snarky academics -- and, hello, you have Aria's perfect fic. I suspect the issue is in the packaging and execution; like, it is everything I have ever wanted, but it's ... not that well-done. Comes a Horseman/Revelation 6:8 comes close to my Platonic ideal of the show, and in fact comes a hell of a lot closer than most of the fic, but -- but. I can't actually tell anyone else that they should see any of it, because their kinks are not necessarily my kinks, and they could easily be watching a different story.

Obviously the solution is to just write my ridiculous Highlander id-fic, not least because enthusiastic self-indulgence usually produces the best fannish writing. But I still feel weird and apologetic about it. OWN IT, SELF, OWN IT LIKE ALL THE OTHER AWESOME RUBBISH YOU LOVE.
yasaman: Duncan and Methos thoughtfully reading something (duncan and methos)

[personal profile] yasaman 2010-07-22 06:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh I have some of the same feelings about Highlander! I mean, yes, it's sort of terrible? But I just honestly don't really care. Highlander has ruined me for all other immortal characters, because it does at least gesture towards some of the most interesting questions immortality raises. And once you get past the cheesy effects, the terrible clothes, the hilarious flashbacks...well, there's some really fascinating stuff at the core about what it means to be immortal, how a person navigates changing times and changing morals without compromising themselves, and relationships.

I've had fun seeing how fic writers have dealt with and answered those questions, but I do feel like I missed out on the interesting conversations and debates. Like, how did fandom first react to the whole Methos is Death thing? (Besides lots of ugly misogyny when it comes to Cassandra of course. :/ ) Were there lots of arguments between the Duncan and Methos fans? Were there a lot of debates about the nature of the Game? It's like I'm 12 years too late for the fandom, which sucks because now Highlander is just this charming throwback of slash fandom while I'm like, but I want more fic and meta and to share my thoughts :( .

Anyway, in conclusion, you should totally write your Highlander id-fic, and don't feel apologetic because you will have at least one person cheering you on!
juniperphoenix: Duncan and Methos painting a house (HL: Duncan & Methos)

[personal profile] juniperphoenix 2010-07-22 06:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Hi there! I'm a friend of [personal profile] were_duck's and saw this on my Network page.

Highlander fandom (at least on LJ/DW; I'm not sure about mailing lists) has been struggling for the last few years. There are still plenty of people who love the show, but the volume of fic and discussion has been really low lately. Fresh blood would be EXTREMELY welcome. :D

[livejournal.com profile] hl_flash is the fandom newsletter; its maintainer, [livejournal.com profile] unovis_lj, has been heroic in her efforts to keep the fandom going by gathering discussion, recruiting reccers, etc.

[livejournal.com profile] highlander_lj is the community where I've hung out the most; it accepts fic as well as general news, discussion, etc.

[livejournal.com profile] tes_fic has hosted several episode discussions which will give you a good feel for the overall discourse. (And, bonus, there are pretty pictures!)

[livejournal.com profile] hlh_shortcuts is an annual fic exchange held in December and the most reliable source of HL fic these days in terms of both quantity and quality.

I see you list SGA among your interests... in comparison, I expect you'll find HL fandom to have more of an old-school feel (whatever that means) and to be less meta-inclined (although there is some meta, and I personally would love to see more of it). The fic output these days includes a lot of crossovers, but extreme AUs are rare.

I think everybody acknowledges the fundamental sillinesses of the story. :D But we still sob over it, too.

ETA: Ha, I forgot to mention the fandom archive, HL Fiction.
Edited 2010-07-22 19:06 (UTC)
ext_390514: Donna, with text saying "Hug me. I'm awesome." (Default)

[identity profile] sophia-sol.livejournal.com 2010-07-22 07:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Dunno if this'll help at all, but I've found at least one community that does discussion as well as fic, which might allow you to feel more connected with the opinions of the fandom. You can find it here (http://community.livejournal.com/highlander_lj/). I haven't looked at much of the discussion yet, though, so I can't tell if it's what you're looking for.

(but there IS one super-cool post (http://community.livejournal.com/highlander_lj/89701.html) about trying to linguistically determine the origin of Methos' name)

Anyways, you should TOTALLY not feel apologetic for writing Highlander fic, because fandom is all about id-y goodness, and if Highlander hits that for you? Then that is a GOOD thing. And you should write Highlander fic forever.

(ps I would TOTALLY read the modern AU about the dorky dysfunctional horsemen gang)
yasaman: Duncan and Methos thoughtfully reading something (duncan and methos)

[personal profile] yasaman 2010-07-22 07:13 pm (UTC)(link)
YYY, I want a resurgence of those conversations, because fandom has changed so much. I feel like a lot of old school HL fic seemed unable to be fair to Methos and compassionate to Cassandra at the same time. There are a couple of fics that do it, but the vast majority just turn her into this caricature of an enraged, scorned woman. And, history nerd here, I think it goes into deeper questions of how you can or can't judge the morals of times and cultures that are far removed from our own. I feel like the show too often backed away from really engaging with the question of whether Duncan had a right to judge people for past actions that may have been moral/acceptable then but not now.

And the Game! I have thoughts about the Game, mostly that it is total bullshit and that it is just an easy-to-fixate-on purpose for immortals who go a little crazy with wondering what the point of their immortality is to latch on to. Also it doesn't make sense because there's not necessarily a mechanism to stop new pre-immortals from being born.

So many interesting questions! So many interesting characters! Why is this fandom mostly dormant? ;_____;
genarti: Sarah Connor looking dubious ([scc] dubious)

[personal profile] genarti 2010-07-22 07:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Unhelpfully, I vote that you should do all the self-indulgent fic and meta you feel moved to, in an effort to jump-start a resurgence! I have seen that work somewhat, at least with a small pocket of flist-fannishness, with other fandoms in the past.

Other than that, I have :-/ faces but no helpful advice. Even eight years ago when I was reading Highlander fic on website archives, I was very much on the periphery of the fandom, and it was somewhat oldschool then too. And if there were pockets of awesome meta, I missed them back then, too. (There probably were.) That said, though I don't know that many really hardcore fans, everybody I know acknowledges the silliness of it even when it's with love. I mean, come on; they store their swords in plot holes between uses, here.
juliekarasik: (Default)

[personal profile] juliekarasik 2010-07-22 07:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, new HL fic would be wonderful! I love the old and dusty stuff but it's... old and dusty. New and shiny is always good.
ext_390514: Donna, with text saying "Hug me. I'm awesome." (Default)

[identity profile] sophia-sol.livejournal.com 2010-07-22 07:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh, if I just got you to write stories about Methos' origin then I am TOTALLY OKAY with being a bastard. :D
ext_390514: Donna, with text saying "Hug me. I'm awesome." (Default)

[identity profile] sophia-sol.livejournal.com 2010-07-22 07:48 pm (UTC)(link)
\o/
genarti: Knees-down view of woman on tiptoe next to bookshelves ([dw] glee!)

[personal profile] genarti 2010-07-22 07:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh my god, I suspect that playing that game one might very well pass out three episodes in.

I'm just saying.

But I can't think of any more complicated Highlander drinking game that wouldn't cause all the players to die of alcohol poisoning (drink every time Duncan is self-righteous! drink every time someone has a moment of Silent Manpain! take a tiny tiny sip every time something is homoerotic!) so maybe your plan is best after all.

And at least so far as I'm concerned, it's totally not a void! Also, every time you post about Highlander, I go OH YEAH I WAS MEANING TO WATCH MORE OF THAT. So maybe you will prompt one more fan to a resurgence, at the very least!
genarti: Sarah Connor looking dubious ([scc] dubious)

[personal profile] genarti 2010-07-22 08:02 pm (UTC)(link)
I am pretty sure the "tiny tiny sip" one PLAYED ALONE would make you falling-down drunk.

Curse you and your temptations! *shakes tiny fist* Um. >.> I have some sewing projects coming up, and that's always a good time to watch things that are in English and don't involve a ton of brain involvement. I don't own the eps; I don't suppose you know of anywhere they're streaming or whatever? (Netflix is also an option I may resort to, but I like having options. Also, my laptop is a netbook sans dvd player.)
yasaman: Duncan and Methos thoughtfully reading something (duncan and methos)

[personal profile] yasaman 2010-07-22 08:13 pm (UTC)(link)
I actually love that, but that doesn't make it easy, especially because we don't have the long view on it. The most telling thing Methos says, possibly ever, is when, in the church in Revelation 6:8, Duncan asks why Methos lied about who he was, and Methos responds, "I have been many things, MacLeod."

Yes, exactly! I think one of the most fascinating things about Methos, and one of the things that has allowed him to live so long relatively sanely, is that he has been so many different things, and yet he's been Methos all along too. I take his side a lot of the time, at least against Duncan's more blatant judginess, but Horseman Methos wasn't a good guy to know. I think Methos is mostly a good guy now, and probably has been for a while (...for certain values of good guy), but I can live with the fact that he hasn't always been. 5000 years is a whole hell of a lot of past.

I so wish the show had given Methos and Cassandra some sort of closure, because I really really wanted to see it. It was a bold thing for the show to do, to introduce a truly loathsome, disturbing past for a loved character, and to have someone there saying "this is what you did to me, and I am still fucked up because of it." Cassandra would be so much more interesting as a character if she was allowed to be something other than angry and fucked up, and sadly there's a real minority of fic that explores that.

Actually, that ... is one of the things I am addressing in the fic I am writing right now. :D

\o/ I'm always interested in people's explanations for pre-immortals!
franzeska: (Default)

[personal profile] franzeska 2010-07-22 08:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I caught Highlander the first time it ever aired and watched a lot of it in its original run. I read fic a long time ago now too (though probably mostly after its original run). And I still have no clue about HL fandom.

A lot of it was indeed on lists back in the day. I think a couple of them are still on yahoo groups. It also had a decent-sized (maybe even large?) zine presence at one time. I remember reading the products of, for example, that harlequin romance novel challenge thing, but I was never really hooked in with the parts of the fandom that discussed things.

If you want debates on the nature of the game though, look no further than every nerdy guy who was in his 20s in the 1980s. Just saying. (If I never hear another "philosophical" discussion about the original movie again, it will be too soon! :D)

Oh, shit, Fanlore reminds me that, of course, HL was also heavily discussed on usenet. It looks like the mailing lists I vaguely remember being told about are HLFIC-L and HIGHLA-L.
rusty_halo: doctor/master: putting the tea back in OTP (dw: doctor/master: tea otp)

[personal profile] rusty_halo 2010-07-22 10:37 pm (UTC)(link)
What about starting a Highlander rewatch community? If promoted widely enough, I suspect a fair number of people would join. I would, although to be honest, I'd only watch along with the Methos episodes.

I am curious how fandom now would react to Highlander. At its best, the show raises some fascinating issues, especially once Methos shows up and gets his shades of grey all over everything. (I'm very fond of "Chivalry" and "The Valkyrie" in addition to the obvious CaH/R6:8.) And some of the comedy episodes are great--the actors had fantastic chemistry and seem to have gotten away with quite of a bit of improvisation.

But yeah, the show is hilariously bad a lot of the time--I've had some embarrassing experiences where I've tried to get friends into it and they've looked me like I'm crazy. There's a lot of silliness that regular viewers learn to overlook after a while, but that tend to throw newbies even in the better episodes. (Wacky premise, terrible acting, disappearing and reappearing swords, headless bodies everywhere...)
skywaterblue: (highlander)

Check it, I even have an icon:

[personal profile] skywaterblue 2010-07-22 11:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I watched a lot of Highlander first run - I think it was all back on Usenet then as I was faaaar to young to participate in fandom at this point. OH BUT: you know who did and is still active? [personal profile] selenak!

You should ask her.

Also: I secretly consider Highlander to be one of the best shows ever, because if it did nothing else it really THOUGHT about how to gender balance a TV show so that all the audiences had something to like about it. Do you like costume drama? We got that! Character arc? We got that! Silly ridiculous sword fights and motorcycle drama? We got it! Gay subtext? Secret organizations? ... etc.

And it also thought about what it really meant to be Immortal. It's sort of the benchmark for writing an Immortal character - can you make it at least as believable as the Immortals on Highlander? If you can't, you probably shouldn't be doing it.

skywaterblue: (highlander)

[personal profile] skywaterblue 2010-07-22 11:04 pm (UTC)(link)
I think we should play it over IM via Hulu. I'd get so sloshed.
genarti: woman curled up with book, under a tree on a wooded slope in early autumn ([misc] my perfect corner of the world)

[personal profile] genarti 2010-07-22 11:17 pm (UTC)(link)
...Never mind; I just found it on Hulu. WELL OKAY THEN.

>.
juliekarasik: (Default)

[personal profile] juliekarasik 2010-07-22 11:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooooh shiny. I look forward to more. HL seems to spawn either drabbles or epic novel-ness, and not much inbetween.

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